36 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

For reference:
Tukayyid 1 - http://mwomercs.com/...yid-statistics/
Tukayyid 2 - http://mwomercs.com/...id-stats-part-1

Tukayyid 1 -
Total players:
IS: 10,346 (41.5% over populated)
Clan: 7,312

Total Matches: 334,558

Average Damage Taken per Death (Damage received / Mechs destroyed)
IS: 372
Clan: 373 (0.2% advantage)

Average Damage Dealt per Match (Damage dealt / Matches played)
IS: 536.99 (0.31% advantage)
Clan: 535.38

Tukayyid 2 -
Total players:
IS: 7,929 (19.2% over populated)
Clan: 6,654

Total Matches: 182,921

Average Damage Taken Before Death:
IS: 368 (7.9% advantage)
Clan: 341

Average Damage Dealt Per Match:
IS: 515.19
Clan: 568.54 (10.35% advantage)

[Adamski]

My take on what the stats show:

The TDR have now been nerfed 3 times in a row, along with the STK-4N. All of them mainstays of many IS forces, this has lowered the damage that the IS has been able to put out.

The Clan mechs cannot alpha as quick as they could before, but they received an 8% increase in their DPS from their heatsink buff, which shows up with the 10% increase in their average damage dealt.

IS currently only has 1 advantage, and that is 800m+ sniping, but very few maps are laid out for that, and worse, Clan mechs are known to be much faster than IS mechs, allowing them to get into their preferred optimal faster to allow their myriad other advantages to catch up and surpass the DPS gap.

[PerfectDuck]

There is another HUGE advantage that inner sphere 'mechs have, although this does not present itself as often in pug matches, tragically due to lack of pilot effort to coordinate. Clanmechs overheat fast (their heat capacity has been reduced) and can be overtaken and overwhelmed by coordinated brawl pushes by IS mechs, with Atlas especially adept at tanking now that it's been additionally reinforced.

Hell, sometimes I can even survive spear-heading an entire wave

Spoiler

Context: Counter-Attack mode, with us defending Omega. Seismic was detected around the open Beta Gate where we grouped up. Our whole team pushed out immediately behind my Atlas. Masakari, cauldron-borns and madcats among other rabble were taken down

The way I see it there was nothing physically stopping IS from winning, it was just because the mech strengths require more skill and teamwork to exploit, while clan mechs are inherently easier to operate in an uncertain, nobody-pushing mid distance trading scenario. Average players vs average players favor the clans but when coordinated groups are involved it's a very different story.

Edited by PerfectDuck, 12 December 2015 - 01:36 AM.

[Adamski]

The EBJ with 2x LPL 6x ERML still has enough heat capacity with dissipation to drill through a KGC that has 110 front CT armor & 62 CT structure before it overheats.

Then PGI buffed Clan dissipation, so that it can do a repeat performance faster than it could previously.

Clan Brawling got a buff this patch, relying on rushing into the IS shorter brawling range is not the iWin tactic you think it is.

[DarthHias]

8% dps increase? When you mount 10 additional Heatsinks to the engine truedubs you gain 0,1 heat dissipation per second in comparison to the prepatch heatsink stats. So where does that amount to a 8% dps buff?

[Kin3ticX]

worth noting, the average damage per player in the hardcore unit event was 960 doing the same calculation


http://mwomercs.com/...core-statistics

Total Damage Done: 101,428,615 / Total Matches: 105,634 = 960.2

Edited by Kin3ticX, 12 December 2015 - 02:09 AM.

[Adamski]

Sorry, all the heatsinks that were changed got an 8% increase in dissipation.

[vocifer]

It proves the rebalance affect on the game:

Clans are now less mobile and are easier to be cored (you spend 32 damage less per kill).
IS ones are also less mobile than before patch but have structure/armor buffs to compensate this (almost the same dmg/kill).

The dmg/match is wrong: you are dividing the IS(Clan) overall damage per IS+Clan number of matches, so it should be twice as much:

IS 1030 dmg/match
Clan 1137 dmg/match

Edited by vocifer, 12 December 2015 - 02:29 AM.

[Adamski]

Good point, I was more interested in the ratio of the disparity than in the average numbers, but those numbers look better.

[PerfectDuck]

Since you brought up the vomit cauldron, let's compare it to a similar IS counterpart
For below stats, "Fast Fire", cooldown modules and double basics are applied


EBJ-A 2C-LPL 4C-ERML
EBJ-A

For simplicity, C-ERML will wait slightly to fire synchronous to C-LPL
C-ERML With Module: fires every 3.64s
C-LPL With Module: fires every 3.82s

EBJ Heat Dissipation: 4.89 heat/s
EBJ Heat Capacity: 79.80

Full volley: (2x C-LPL + 4x C-ERML): 44.0 heat cost, 54 damage
Heat recovered before next volley (3.82s): 18.68
Heat recovery vs cost (aka "Cooling Efficiency"): 42.5%

Heat Simulation
0.00s 1st Volley: 44.00/79.80: 55%
3.82s 2nd Volley: 69.32/79.80: 86%
7.64s 3rd Volley: 94.64/79.80: 119% (Overheat) (by 8.79s, 162 damage dealt)

Ultimate sustainable DPS: 6.357 (derived from dmg-to-heat ratios and dissipation)



TDR-5SS 2LPL 5ML
TDR-5SS

For Simplicity, LPL will wait slightly to fire synchronous to ML
ML With Module: fires every 2.94s
LPL With Module: fires every 2.88s

TDR Heat Dissipation: 3.59 heat/s
TDR Heat Capacity: 74.40

Full volley: (2x LPL + 5x ML): 28.9 heat cost, 47 damage
Heat recovered before next volley (2.94s): 10.55
Heat recovery vs cost (aka "Cooling Efficiency"): 36.5%

Heat Simulation
0.00s 1st Volley: 28.9/74.40: 39%
2.94s 2nd Volley: 47.25/74.40: 64%
5.88s 3rd Volley: 65.6/74.40: 88%
8.82s 4th Volley: 83.95/74.40: 112% (Overheat) (By 9.72s, 188 damage dealt)

Ultimate sustainable DPS: 6.63 (derived from dmg-to-heat ratios and dissipation)


Similarities? Differences?

Adamski, on 12 December 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

The EBJ with 2x LPL 6x ERML still has enough heat capacity with dissipation to drill through a KGC that has 110 front CT armor & 62 CT structure before it overheats.

If by 'before it overheats' you mean it waits a little while between shots then maybe... my example opted for max heat sinks instead of 6erml

Edited by PerfectDuck, 12 December 2015 - 03:35 AM.

[Dominuus]

As the numbers were as nearly even as the stats show, why did the IS queue take so long to make a match.

[vocifer]

Dominuus, on 12 December 2015 - 03:34 AM, said:

As the numbers were as nearly even as the stats show, why did the IS queue take so long to make a match.

Because 30% overpopulation peaks were only at primetime hours. All other time there were mostly 2-3 groups on IS side queued.

[Kin3ticX]

vocifer, on 12 December 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

The dmg/match is wrong: you are dividing the IS(Clan) overall damage per IS+Clan number of matches, so it should be twice as much:

IS 1030 dmg/match
Clan 1137 dmg/match

yeah something is up, i just took the total damage and / by total matches and got 1083.73

Edited by Kin3ticX, 12 December 2015 - 03:54 AM.

[Doomerang]

While looking at PerfectDuck's numbers, keep in mind that shorter cooldowns and burn times mean that the thunderbolt could deal 94 damage before the Ebon gets off it's second volley, and that 94 damage is enough to strip a side torso disabling weapons and therefore significant damage potential from a clan mech. Additionally, shorter burn times for IS means a greater amount of time available to torso twist, spreading incoming damage dealt by the longer burning Clan lasers. A skilled Inner Sphere pilot has a number of advantages that tend to be willfully ignored by easy-win IS buff proponents.

[vocifer]

Kin3ticX, on 12 December 2015 - 03:51 AM, said:

yeah something is up, i just took the total damage and / by total matches and got 1083.73

Increased a bit from 1072.37 since Tuk1.

Looks like hardcore unit event with its lower 960 dmg mark was mostly about gen rushing, while this was only a matter of last two hours for both Tukayyid events.

[Adamski]

PerfectDuck, on 12 December 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

Since you brought up the vomit cauldron, let's compare it to a similar IS counterpart
For below stats, "Fast Fire", cooldown modules and double basics are applied


EBJ-A 2C-LPL 4C-ERML
EBJ-A

For simplicity, C-ERML will wait slightly to fire synchronous to C-LPL
C-ERML With Module: fires every 3.64s
C-LPL With Module: fires every 3.82s

EBJ Heat Dissipation: 4.89 heat/s
EBJ Heat Capacity: 79.80

Full volley: (2x C-LPL + 4x C-ERML): 44.0 heat cost, 54 damage
Heat recovered before next volley (3.82s): 18.68
Heat recovery vs cost (aka "Cooling Efficiency"): 42.5%

Heat Simulation
0.00s 1st Volley: 44.00/79.80: 55%
3.82s 2nd Volley: 69.32/79.80: 86%
7.64s 3rd Volley: 94.64/79.80: 119% (Overheat) (by 8.79s, 162 damage dealt)

Ultimate sustainable DPS: 6.357 (derived from dmg-to-heat ratios and dissipation)



TDR-5SS 2LPL 5ML
TDR-5SS

For Simplicity, LPL will wait slightly to fire synchronous to ML
ML With Module: fires every 2.94s
LPL With Module: fires every 2.88s

TDR Heat Dissipation: 3.59 heat/s
TDR Heat Capacity: 74.40

Full volley: (2x LPL + 5x ML): 28.9 heat cost, 47 damage
Heat recovered before next volley (2.94s): 10.55
Heat recovery vs cost (aka "Cooling Efficiency"): 36.5%

Heat Simulation
0.00s 1st Volley: 28.9/74.40: 39%
2.94s 2nd Volley: 47.25/74.40: 64%
5.88s 3rd Volley: 65.6/74.40: 88%
8.82s 4th Volley: 83.95/74.40: 112% (Overheat) (By 9.72s, 188 damage dealt)

Ultimate sustainable DPS: 6.63 (derived from dmg-to-heat ratios and dissipation)


Similarities? Differences?



If by 'before it overheats' you mean it waits a little while between shots then maybe... my example opted for max heat sinks instead of 6erml

Great builds, the EBJ will move / twist faster, as well as having much better range (600m / 405m) compared to the TDR with 420m / 311m.

If you change the EBJ to 8x MPL, it bumps its sustained DPS by 10% but reduces the range to 330m (561m max) but since you consolidate all your weapons, you can add another 10% from modules to 363m / 617.

[Adamski]

Doomerang, on 12 December 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

While looking at PerfectDuck's numbers, keep in mind that shorter cooldowns and burn times mean that the thunderbolt could deal 94 damage before the Ebon gets off it's second volley, and that 94 damage is enough to strip a side torso disabling weapons and therefore significant damage potential from a clan mech. Additionally, shorter burn times for IS means a greater amount of time available to torso twist, spreading incoming damage dealt by the longer burning Clan lasers. A skilled Inner Sphere pilot has a number of advantages that tend to be willfully ignored by easy-win IS buff proponents.

cMPL and IS MPL have the same damage per second of face time. The cMPL have 50% more optimal range, and 28% more max range.
IS LPL are much better than cLPL but, they also weigh 17% more, and only have 61% of the range.

Just like IS ERPPC weigh 17% more and only have 66% of the damage.

I think the biggest change to Clan damage taken before death was the result of the SCR losing so many of its godlike torso twisting quirks, and also being more vulnerable after it loses a side torso.

[Jon Gotham]

Doomerang, on 12 December 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

While looking at PerfectDuck's numbers, keep in mind that shorter cooldowns and burn times mean that the thunderbolt could deal 94 damage before the Ebon gets off it's second volley, and that 94 damage is enough to strip a side torso disabling weapons and therefore significant damage potential from a clan mech. Additionally, shorter burn times for IS means a greater amount of time available to torso twist, spreading incoming damage dealt by the longer burning Clan lasers. A skilled Inner Sphere pilot has a number of advantages that tend to be willfully ignored by easy-win IS buff proponents.

I don't know why more people don't understand this....

[fbj]

kamiko kross, on 12 December 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

I don't know why more people don't understand this....

Numbers and stuff hards

[PerfectDuck]

Doomerang, on 12 December 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

While looking at PerfectDuck's numbers, keep in mind that shorter cooldowns and burn times mean that the thunderbolt could deal 94 damage before the Ebon gets off it's second volley, and that 94 damage is enough to strip a side torso disabling weapons and therefore significant damage potential from a clan mech. Additionally, shorter burn times for IS means a greater amount of time available to torso twist, spreading incoming damage dealt by the longer burning Clan lasers. A skilled Inner Sphere pilot has a number of advantages that tend to be willfully ignored by easy-win IS buff proponents.

This is exactly what I wanted someone else to say. Thunderbolt is vastly better at protecting its CT, turning torso sideways is a good approach option while the Ebon doesn't really stand a chance of doing that at all. Another TDR variant has shorter beam duration and is probably better for this build while the 5SS should probably boat Medium Pulses. I'm all for humiliating shamefur cranners but I'm not going to stand around throwing B.S. to imply their mechs are vastly overpowered or something. IS mechs are better for brawling! Night's Scorn has been on both sides of this. Myself and several others longed dearly to have good brawl mechs once again when we were with the clans. We *love* pushing into clan groups with our brawl decks, the CW maps have lots of cover, valleys and chokes to make it doable, and doing precisely that is how we got this "IS Exemplar" badge thingy. With all these structure quirks, you just have to have a pair and be willing to take damage for your team, which pugs are always too afraid to do. When IS mechs are used properly, best the clan-mechs can do is use superior speed to run away and abandon rest of team. Ha ha ha.