39 replies to this topic

[Hunter Watzas]

CwStrife, on 06 January 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

Clan has a higher alpha. I run thunderwubs most of the time and I have almost all my armor on the front, like 6 points on the back, and I can tell you that an IS has nowhere as strong an alpha as most clan mechs do.

the fact your weapons are lighter, mechs are generally faster too, is one advantage. I've had a direwolf dual gauss me and fire a zillion cMLAS at me and take me from a fresh torso to damn near cored out. No IS mech can do that. Sure that dire wolf is going to not be able to do that alpha again on me, but it damn well shouldn't be able to. I need a chance to fight back.

Any decent clan group will destroy regular IS players, but ever since the steam release I have seen alot of new people that just kind of do whatever, they want. They filter in, don't work together, don't push together.

The bottom line here is not so much IS vs Clan it's really about teamwork, and that is the key to really being successful here. If you have 12 mechs targeting 1 mech at a time and bringing it down you can quickly run over anything in your way. Alot of people don't seem to realize this.

Sure IS has quirks, doesn't really help too much to be honest. I've owned a timberwolf and that thing could soak up damage, and it was quicker than any IS in it's weight class.

I've seen clanners recently just bring some many LRM's it's pathetic, and that is another bad move on the clanners parts. If you have 4 or 5 mechs that are running pretty much LRM builds well then what do you expect to happen when you have only half your time do a push and the rest just sitting back and trying to LRM anything they can. It will of course be unsuccessful!

Damn straight a direwolf should be able to do that, it out classes you by 35 tons. In expected reality, it should have liquidated your face. The fact that you believe a thunderbolt (65 ton) should take on a direwolf (100 ton) and it should be a fair fight is dumb. Direwolf should be the most heavy hitting mech in game, its not. Good IS mechs have equally as powerful alphas that can fire more often. If you don't believe quirks provide anything than you haven't tried to optimize your builds.

No one is denying teamwork and skill, but i bet if you put the best comp team in the worst mechs in game and then put them against a not so good team in the most powerful mechs in the game, the comp team will lose. It might be close if the comp team can force the other team into a bad position and are able to exploit their mechs. But at the same time giving someone the most powerful mech in game who can't hit means nothing.

Yes an average clan group should destroy an average IS group because of the skill difference; most clan pilots are more experienced and for a while the IS was filled with trials in CW. Now its kind of balanced with the amount of new pilots on both sides and more comp units going IS.

[Jack Spade Ward]

PFC Carsten, on 06 January 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

No need to LOL, but if you feel bemused, feel free. I however won't open my post with such a disrespectful acronym and I won't try to force my opinion on you either („instruct“) - but to each his own. So, I will only comment on parts of your „instructions“.


First: That's why I said I like it for the suppression effect. Second, susceptibility to being shot down easily by AMS has a prerequisite: AMS on the targeted mech or some of his friends, which in turn carries weight penalties. Good indicators of hidden mechs, if people forget to turn it of as well I might add. Good news: IS-AMS does not weigh more than cAMS. But something else does: Active probes. 2 slots/1.5 tons for IS, 1/1 for Clan.



I don't know much about it, but on this metamechs-site, tier 1 mechs in every weight class use most of them nonetheless. They wouldn't be Tier 1 in competitive, if they weren't competitive right? Or is there also a discrimination between IS and Clan in place as in Faction Play?

They weigh less, the mechs are more nimble with larger engines, thus being able merely not to spread, but to avoid damage in the first place to a higher degree. And from what I saw there from a quick glance: Most of the "Tier 1" IS-mechs below the assault class seem to rely heavily on XL-engines - Boom.

IMHO - and call me in need of instruction all day long if you want - IS is not OP, it has different strengths - as have the clans. Use both wisely and you'll be able to succeed in both.

Ok, first of all, you post before made me laugh, honestly, it did. It seems your reality about the game is way off, hence my "LOL"

About metamech site, that site is a great help, to understand the meta and help building our mechs to our needs using the current meta, still, the tier positions of mechs is his opinion, and his alone. The fact that you believe in his opinion, its your own personal view. Besides, he hasnt updated his site for a while.
That said, notice that ALL the competitive units (mercs) run IS mechs, for a damn good reason. I run with some of them once and a while, and the key words are SKILL and CORDENATION. But, using the current meta always help. And one more thing, they all know that IS outperforms clan any day of the week... and the recent increase in tonnage in the clan side, wont help.

There is a reason why many of the clan players went to IS, a very good reason...

[Roland09]

Spadejack, on 05 January 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

Well, i could show you numbers that proove what im trying to say, still, with the post you made before, i didnt really bother.
You, as many other IS players, still suffer from a condition called "Clan Mechs OP". That condition makes you think that, besides clan tech being nerfed to ground, will ever be OP.
So, as i said before, i know that, mercs know that and i thought that you knew that also. The fact you dont, makes me conclude that you suffer from the condition i said above.
If you dont beleive me, join a clan unit, take your own conclusions, and come back here after a month Stay safe
PS- your welcome

kamiko kross, well said

You could show numbers, but you won't, for some unfathomable reason? Dodging like an Arctic Cheetah on speed tweak, are you?

Now, that's a real pity. You know, with numbers, we could actually have something that people call a factual discussion. Without, we are left with another thread of Clanners chanting their well-known mantra ("IS OP! Clanners suck!! Nerf, Nerf, Nerf!!!") ad nauseam. This thread is full of it.

The only little gem I am missing in this thread is "PGI hates Clanners!1!!". But I am not discouraged, maybe some of you will indulge me.

[Roland09]

Tamashii, on 06 January 2016 - 02:15 AM, said:

@ Roland09:
Did you read that in my post? apparently not!

In my Hangar a lot of Clan and IS Mechs are stored, we switch to the Dragon sometimes, and I am really sorry to say, but the IS overquirked Mechs do the unbalance in CW.

A Battlemaster can fire his ERLL (2 by 2) plenty times to reach the heat warning, any heavy or assault Clanmech will shut down a lot earlier, and yes I got the Mech full of DHS Buddy.

For me it looks like you never played Clan before...

Forgive me for not giving credit for you not calling for an outright boycott of MWO/CW/PGI, which some your sibko BRAVE CLAN WARRIORS™ have been wont to do. Maybe I should have. In fact, I have suggested much the same thing in another thread: If Clan vs. IS is so badly unbalanced, why don't you go play Clan vs. Clan? My suggestion was met with a bit of ridicule, and the hint, you know, because lore.

For your information also, I have the Clan Wave II pack ( I bought it after the Refunder faction came out in force, to make up for at least one of these BRAVE CLAN WARRIORS™ ). I also got a triple of Adders, which just got a whole lot more deadly. I bought these earlier, when the Clanners at the time were whining they had no light mechs which were playable at all. Needless to say, I found that yet another baseless over-generalized statement. But I digress...

Since you brought up the example twice, it seems you think the Battlemaster is what unbalances CW? Okay, Battlemasters (especially the BLR-1S variant) can be made into nice energy weapon snipers. Let's see a build which you think is so bad, and let's see whether that can't be countered by mechs using Clan tech.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Roland09, on 06 January 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

You could show numbers, but you won't, for some unfathomable reason? Dodging like an Arctic Cheetah on speed tweak, are you?

Now, that's a real pity. You know, with numbers, we could actually have something that people call a factual discussion. Without, we are left with another thread of Clanners chanting their well-known mantra ("IS OP! Clanners suck!! Nerf, Nerf, Nerf!!!") ad nauseam. This thread is full of it.

The only little gem I am missing in this thread is "PGI hates Clanners!1!!". But I am not discouraged, maybe some of you will indulge me.

Will do
"PGI hate clanners" "Nerf PGI"

Hows that

But Roland, honestly, you make me laugh so much LOL

And do remember, im Davion, not in a clan

[Jack Spade Ward]

Source Mystic, on 06 January 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

I am not here to rage just bring some logic and mediation. I am tired of hearing clan vs I.S. argument. why because in the lore clan tech was far better than I.S. but in the lore the balance was not as many clan than Is so that there might be a 2 vs 1 or a 3 vs 1 against a clan mech. I.S.had the numbers and were more experienced. clan had the tech but less numbers thus in the lore it was a argument of quality (clan) VS quantity (I.S).

This will never be the way this game will be balanced so stop bringing it up.

I have played I.S. before re-balance this and i will play I.S. after. if you switch sides just because your op mechs are not dominating anymore and you are forced to play on a more even footing i just call you a coward. I do not mind playing a underdog and the reason i chose I.S because everyone was playing clan i get tired of everyone recommending clan mechs and saying they are better ... so i went I.S.just to spite this logic and bring some variety to the game

Now i am hearing that many of the dedicated clan players are switching to the I.S. side and i will just call you out as cowards if you do that. we need good pilots on both sides everyone wants to complain about balance yet always flow to the meta. instead of just sticking to your side and mechs and let the meta come and go let the changes come and go.

True balance is when you have good players on both side. I do not even own a clan mech not one. the only reason i have a clan logo in my name is i am part of a team that rotates to get garages and other things. i play my I.S mechs even still play the Jenner in it current condition.

so all I have t say is man up stick with your side and adapt to the changes that come do not gravitate to the meta . if you are truly better pilots on the clan side stay there and prove it that is all I have to say. what do you think ?

I think you are not qualified to call anyopne coward, specially if you dont own clan mechs and have been in a clan unit.
So, sit back, eat your popcorns and enjoy the game.

[Celtic Warrior IS]

Jon Gotham, on 05 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Just gonna repost this I wrote earlier from another thread, because I can't be bothered to retype it again:)

"I couldn't agree more. I think issue here is:
MWO combat is about damage dealt/received per contact window. Now, to win the damage trade per contact window you need to be able to get your damage on target whilst taking less. This obviously favours front loaded pin point weapons. Secondly over the course of any given trade, you may have 30 seconds of smaller "windows" these windows are dictated by heat and exposure time and frequency. If you can have 5 "windows" to your opponent's 3, then you have an edge.

Currently the Inner Sphere mechs are generally cooler, with shorter duration lasers and heavily quirked pin point weapons. they are generally higher velocity,and faster cooldown.
they also tend to have comparable armour values backed up by structure quirks.
due to the shorter duration lasers and buffed srms/ballistics their damage tends to be more "efficient" per shot. This means more damage goes where you want it with less "wastage."

for example, an Is mech and a clan mech go at it at 600m with their versions of ERLL. Both do full damage at that range. The Is laser has a 20% duration lessening quirk. the Is mech puts his/her full damage out in one second. The clanner does his/hers in 1.5 seconds. This means the Is mech can place a full burn (9pts) and still start to twist BEFORE the clanner's damage is even applied fully. The Is mech would be able to spread that damage across 2-3 components, combined with said structure quirks......result is obvious. This generally applies to all clan lasers and AC.....
Attrition IS mech wins, every single time.......

Currently many Is mechs can out range, out alpha, out efficiency and out survive their clan counterparts.
I am now struggling to kit out and build my clan mechs, my first act was to start rationlising and try to logically wok out counters to IS tech (remember, I run BOTH sets of tech frequently). Trouble is if you factor in the above there isn't a direct counter in most cases....
you have to hope they are worse at the game than you are......two pilots of equal talent=bad news for the clan mech....
Right now CW fun is IS v IS seems good balance. Trouble is, it's s slap in the face for people that paid a premium for clan mechs with real cash. Not saying they should be anymore powerful at all-but they MUST be equally viable.
MANY of the comp level players I have spoken too and other units are saying the same thing: IS has the edge, in nearly EVERY field."

Now bear in mind I'm a predominantly IS player. I own these "op" mechs and benefit from them. I know how they perform compared to the equivalent clan mech-because I own them. The above is my, and many others' observations of how things are currently.
If you look 100% objectively and without any silly anti clan bias, you should reach a simliar conclusion.
Things are not right currently.

This is one of the best examples of the difference between IS and Clan I've read so far, it's nothing we already didn't know but well said sir.

That being said.. This is the reason why so many of us clanners are pissed off with all the repeating nerfs being handed down again. This is also the reason why I'm in my new IS account and melting down clan mechs to puddles of metal. I did about 6 drops last night we went up against IS groups 4 times very tough close matches and was handed 2 losses. The 2 wins we had against IS were tough close matches and they were not a 12 man group. 2 of our matches were against well organized clanner groups which actually out maneuvered us tactically in the beginning. We were able to ware them down due the their heat issues, many would shut down therefore ending that mech. Once the tide of battle turned to our favor it was easy to clean them up to a point where you just feel bad. Needless to say we won both matches against the clanners and TS discussion after the match was the feeling on how different the matches went compared to IS.

Many loyal IS players will comment on how the clan players need to adjust their play style to compensate for the extra heat clan mechs generate. I've seen many IS mechs over heat as well so that ends that discussion.

[no one]

This thread reminds me of waaay back when everyone was all 'PGI, for the love of god don't mix clan/is forces, balance asymmetrically with force sizes! Have combat scenarios divided into clan vs. clan, is vs. is and is vs. clan' and then PGI went ahead and forced mixed tech combat anyway. Good times.

[Hexenhammer]

ways to balance without manipulating weapons, quirks etc.


10 vs 12....
Cone of fire instead of pin point accuracy.

[30ft SMURF]

Many issues abound in this game. One of the bigger ones is weapon/mech balance. MMO games always go through phases where things go from good to bad to great to decent and balance is rarely achieved. Community Warfare could have been just IS mechs during the succession wars, and they could have spent their time balancing one set of mechs, but instead we got clans and a whole separate system of tech initially created to be superior yet not even before any of the first mechs were actually balanced. If you haven't blown your brains out at this point I'll try to refrain from topics like knock down, mech scale, useless weapon systems... In an attempt to appease the masses and loudest forum warriors balance is a word used to describe PGI's attempt to keep the community happy and seems to have little to do with the kind of balance designed into the original battle tech weapon systems. Though I have to say to the clanners who think IS mechs are over powered, we've been switching back and forth from faction to faction earning mech bays, and though I prefer being IS I can't actually say they're better than clan mechs. Despite the fact that I think balance is a pie in the sky dream that will never happen I think the problem is in the many details, not just in the over quirked IS mechs that are that way to compensate for the "superior" clan tech. This argument will forever exist and will likely fluctuate back and forth over the years as new mechs on each side dominate the battlefield and people would rather believe they lost because of unfair playing conditions instead of finding out how to get better at the game. Unfortunately, if the past is any indication, we'll keep getting weapon changes that make everything worse. Hopefully some day every weapon system will suck equally and then we might have a good game with something remotely approaching fairness and or a level playing field.

[Rushin Roulette]

Tamashii, on 06 January 2016 - 02:15 AM, said:

A Battlemaster can fire his ERLL (2 by 2) plenty times to reach the heat warning, any heavy or assault Clanmech will shut down a lot earlier, and yes I got the Mech full of DHS Buddy.

For me it looks like you never played Clan before...

Just a short question for you in regards to this one statement. How long does this comparable clan assault (lets take a Warhawk for comparable weight) have to wait until it can fire its 2 by 2 ERLL after reaching its heat cap in comparison to the IS mech?

Lets take these 2 basic builds I slapped together


WHK-PRIME (Sorry, I ran out of space for those DHS long before I ran out of tonnage to add more Heatsinks, so I guess We will be forced to live with the 7,3 tons underweight.
BLR-3M Same weapon loadout, and I either go with the same XL engine or ES and run out of space 14 tonnes left over or I have this one with less DHS
BLR-3M v2 Same as above minus 3 DHS to get a roughly comparable Heat efficiency of 58% to the clans 55% if you want comparable heat efficiencies
Both can survive with 1 Torso lost and are dead/useless if both torsi are lost. The IS mech does have an advantage, that it doesnt loose heat efficiency on Torso destruction, but that is not part of the test.

I purely want to make 2 mechs with the same weapons /engine size/Armour and the rest filled to capacity with DHS as far as possible. Lets make a comparison what can be compared instead of saying one side has better, lighter weapons one side can fit more weapons, one side has better quirks and other excuses. Both mechs are what you would never see on the battlefield, but both are at least comparable.

Which mech can shoot its lasers more in a 2 by 2 fashion with a pause of 0,5 secs between bursts (to avoid GH completely) over a span of 5 minutes without overheating once? The tester must also fire whenever possible but stop shooting when the heat threshold is reached until it is safe to shoot again.

I dont care if you hit anything or not, just repeat the test on a cold map (Frozen City) and a hot map (Terra Therma) with the same conditions for each mech (no consumables or modules and both mechs either fully Mastered or fully basic with no skills unlocked.

I would really like to know how different the DHS for the clans (lower cap but higher discipation) and the IS (higher cap but slower discipation) really are with hard numbers instead of everyone saying my "tech is worse, nerf the others even though I have no hard proof".

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 26 January 2016 - 04:58 AM.

[FaleBowt]

Rushin Roulette, I'm not sure what you're trying to do here mate.

1. You missed the CT spot for the WHK...aka another DHS.
2. Neither BLR build has 4 ERLLs
3. The total HS for the WHK is 29 (30 if you fill the spot) vs BLR's 18 and 21.

If what you say is accurate about cap/dissipation, wouldn't this (#3) leave the WHK cap closer, maybe even higher, than the BLR w/ high dissipation before we science it? Wouldn't it be more accurate to have a singular weapon system w/ the same number of DHS for you to get "...how different the DHS for the clans and the IS really are..:"?

Even then, that only tests the efficiency of the DHS and potentially the single weapon systems? It leaves out a significant number of factors in the "Clan vs IS" debate.

I must also add, the aforementioned, point #2 is significant due to the fact that C-ERLLs gen 10 heat each vs IS ERLLs 8 Heat (pre-quirks). So you're looking at 40pts of heat vs 24 (or 32 w/ 4x ERLLs) before ghost heat.

Edited by FaleBowt, 26 January 2016 - 03:00 PM.

[GutterBoy5]

Clan is still easy mode . We usually are IS but switch to clan occasionally & notice how much easier they straight away. I think they are balanced but it's a case of knowing how to run which mech & how to cope against your enemy & adapt to it.

The OP factor is team work & it should be . You can see this now that many of the successful teams have jumped faction & now IS is swallowing the clans space, when they switch back you will see clans over taking IS. Space again.

[sg spider]

Where is my 9 vs 12 (Clan vs IS)

[Jack Spade Ward]

GutterBoy5, on 26 January 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Clan is still easy mode . We usually are IS but switch to clan occasionally & notice how much easier they straight away. I think they are balanced but it's a case of knowing how to run which mech & how to cope against your enemy & adapt to it.

The OP factor is team work & it should be . You can see this now that many of the successful teams have jumped faction & now IS is swallowing the clans space, when they switch back you will see clans over taking IS. Space again.

You made me confused... so is clan and IS balanced or is clan easy mode?
Dont bother to answer, you sure dont know much of the game to actually see if the game is balanced or not

[Willard Phule]

Easy fix, guys. REAL easy.

The first "quirks" that came out and began to unbalance things were the NEGATIVE quirks given to some of the Clan mechs because of the "whiners."

THEN came the positive quirks to the IS that truly allowed them to run over the clans like it was a T5 solo match.

Here's the fix....get rid of the negative Clan quirks and see how they fare against IS. And do it BEFORE you do any positive tweaking to the Clan mechs to "balance" them.

I bet it'll make a difference.

[Solis Obscuri]

How about we give I.S. 'mechs physical attacks? I'd love to find out how far my Atlas can punt an Arctic Cheetah...

[Karl Streiger]

Willard Phule, on 01 February 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

Easy fix, guys. REAL easy.

The first "quirks" that came out and began to unbalance things were the NEGATIVE quirks given to some of the Clan mechs because of the "whiners."

THEN came the positive quirks to the IS that truly allowed them to run over the clans like it was a T5 solo match.

Here's the fix....get rid of the negative Clan quirks and see how they fare against IS. And do it BEFORE you do any positive tweaking to the Clan mechs to "balance" them.

I bet it'll make a difference.

i really wished people would be less biased.

The negative qurirks are important for the inner clan balance - its a bad move to remove them, you need those quirks as long as you don't allow Clan Omnis to have ES and/or FF-maybe even make all JJs modular.

The other part is the quickening in the IS - and i don't say its right. It was again a bad move. The worst about it - you get all the nice things without a trade of.
When you point at whiners point at those guys that were so "stupid" to cry about the announcments of the Hunchbacks quirks (more velocity, and range but a negative cooldown quirk) of course PGI said, yes its not a penalty but I could bet it was supposed to be a negative quirk.

The second stuff about quirks: they are like the soup of the day.... when you buy a new mech and you buy it because of its quirks its a hopeless move (Grid Iron anyone)

I really would like to have Quirk packages.... say the Sniper Package in 3 levels.... and it doesn't matter if they move the GI from Lvl3 Sniper to Lvl1 Sniper - as long as its still a sniper.
And of course a sniper don't need superb SRM oder MPLAS quirks - and it doesn't need a heat reduction stuff.... just a high precise (more velocity) gun - if it need better cooldown is another question.

And when we are at bandaid we also should think about Ghost Heat - strange system that would work at its best when it kicks in for every weapon - when firing 2 or more weapons. (yes 2 or more) doesn't matter if SRM2 or UAC20

[DivineEvil]

Willard Phule, on 01 February 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

Easy fix, guys. REAL easy.

The first "quirks" that came out and began to unbalance things were the NEGATIVE quirks given to some of the Clan mechs because of the "whiners."

At the moment when negative quirks were given, IS had nothing to oppose Clans. It hasn't changed by them either. Clans steamrolled IS across the map with those negative quirks. They were given to shift superior Clan mechs a bit to even them up with other underperforming Omni's. All it has achieved, that Clanners just always took Ebon Hawks instead of Timbers, and never made Stormcrows anywhere less broken, even though with Ebon Hawks efficiency and Dropship tonnage limits they've became unnecessary.

Quote

THEN came the positive quirks to the IS that truly allowed them to run over the clans like it was a T5 solo match.

IS had positive quirks long before Clans had negative quirks. Some of them were changed to excessive values, some were nerfed. It still didn't changed the fact, that any half-baked Clan player could whittle down an IS player using range and superior heat management. It's only december's changes that for the first time acquired equilibrium with max. range cut, XL damage penalty, nerfed clan DHS and reduced skill tree effects. This is the magnitude of difference in balance between Clan and IS, for everyone to see. And the breaking poing at the moment is only excessive Energy Range that has far superior influence on the balance, than any of the other three modifiers (heat, cooldown and accuracy) applied to any other weapon types.

Prior to that, premade IS would roflstomp PUG clans, and Premade Clans would roflstomp PUG IS, sure, but PUG clans would always defeat the IS PUGs, and Clan premades would always exterminate IS premades of the same average skill/experience/cooperation level no matter what.

Quote

Here's the fix....get rid of the negative Clan quirks and see how they fare against IS. And do it BEFORE you do any positive tweaking to the Clan mechs to "balance" them.


I bet it'll make a difference.

Are you implying that's your idea, even though it's what Russ Bullock himself announced on the recent Town Hall?

Edited by DivineEvil, 02 February 2016 - 01:36 AM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Solis Obscuri, on 01 February 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

How about we give I.S. 'mechs physical attacks? I'd love to find out how far my Atlas can punt an Arctic Cheetah...

I agree! I would love to see an Atlas punching, or the Axe on the Wen Lo Wang