79 replies to this topic

[AlphaToaster]

Thank you Valdherre for posting these.

@Skippy, your math looks right. I logged 45 matches myself over the event.

[TexAce]

V O L T R O N, on 15 December 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

Each person counts as a match played. Thats why it looks so high.

Now that makes sense. Thanks

Edited by TexAce, 15 December 2015 - 05:43 PM.

[Helsbane]

Just wanted to say I'm damn proud of my group. We only managed to get ten people on over the course of the event, and we still placed 17th on the Steiner board. Makes me want to see what we can do when the entire Legion of Boom is finally back together

[Thoman Coston]

Thanks for the stats.
But I think basing the top 10 and top 3 units based solely on win% and ignoring the number of matches is unfair or a bit skewed.

Among the overall top 10 units based on win % alone, only 4 units have more than 1000 battles and 2 units with more than 500 battles. Those 4 units (KCOM, GCGB, MS, 228th) in the overal top 10 showed a performance that is above the rest of the 6 units in the top 10. No offence to the other units, but a 98% win ratio with 1706 matches is surely a much more impressive feat than 91.6% with only 155 matches.

There should be separate brackets: Top 10 with > 1000, Top 10 within 500-999 matches , top 10 within <500 matches.
Top 3 units if number of matches is taken into account:
Kcom 98.4%
MS 88%
GCGB 87.9%
All 3 units reached that high win% with more than 1000 matches.

Without taking thenumber of matches into account, a team that has only played 5 matches and won them all, would have shown 100% win ratio and it would have been listed as the no 1 team.

Edited by Thoman Coston, 15 December 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[King Kuranes]

Maverdick, on 15 December 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

It is interesting to see that most units that still field 12 man teams outside of events did not have awesome win rates, only slightly better than average overall. This is my best guess as to which units might still be playing 12 man:
&gt; 12th Donegal Guards Battle Group [12DG] 67.3%
&gt; German Clan Ghost Bear [GCGB] 87.9%
&gt; Kell's Commandos [KCom] 98.0%
&gt; Night's Scorn [NS] 81.4%
&gt; PUGS United [PUGS] 61.3%
&gt; Tikonov Commonality Armed Forces [TCAF] 59.6%
&gt; Black Widow Company Veteran Mercs [BWC] 44.6%
&gt; Clan Wolf - International [CWI] 64.0%
&gt; Comstar Irregulars [CI] 45.4%
&gt; HeadHunters of Davion [HHoD] 43.0%
&gt; Mercstar [-MS-] 88.0%
&gt; Praetorian Legion [PL] 59.6%
&gt; Robinson Rangers Brigade [RRB] 41.7%
&gt; Seraphim Regiment [SRPH] 32.4%
&gt; Skye Rangers of Terra [SRoT] 55.1%
&gt; Star Wolves [SWOL] 53.0%

In SRM4's case sever of our best players run with the clan force SROX now, in addition with 129 members participating our skilllevels sometimes highly vary.

[Khereg]

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

Also, there are multiple units who increased their win% by swapping from IS to the Clans.

You've said this twice now, so I think you need to go back and look more closely at the data. There's an anomaly for teams that switched during the event where the total number of matches the team played over the event is showing up in both the IS and Clan stats, which is making the calculation of their win percentage for each invalid.

NTEX is a good example. They switched between Kurita and Ghost Bear (I'm assuming from Kurita to Ghost Bear). Notice their total matches played is 960 under both listings? That's fishy. Also their win percentage is only 10% Kurita and 25% Ghost Bear, which is too low for those guys. If you add their wins from each faction together and divide that by 960 (which seems to be total number of matches they played during the event, you'd get a win % of 35%, which is more realistic.

You can see the exact same thing for MM, GRLN, and 66AH, which seem to be all the units that switched during the event.

So the claim that teams increased their winning percentage b/c they switched to clans is false. More likely, they switched from IS to Clan early in the event (because of the long wait times on the IS side) and played more matches as Clan than IS, but the total matches played stat is FUBAR, which is screwing up the win% calculation under each faction.

Edited by Khereg, 16 December 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Xavier]

Lily from animove, on 15 December 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

not necessarily, the mercs surely racke dup wins, but thats all.

there are 63 areas on tukkayid, the one who did the last win on each of its area decides if this area is claimed by clan or is.

theoretically tukayyid could have had 180.000 matches the clans lost as long as they would ahve won 32 of the areas in the last match they would still have claimed tukayyid.
We do not knwo hwo those last 63 matches would ahve ended if they woudl ahve been doen by other people.

But surely with the massive size of the mercs the mercs had the most deciding factor in the general combined statistics values.





the stats tell nothing you do not know if all these drops were actually 12 mans, or just grps of 3 each, or any other composition or just pugging.

The only real fctor you know is about how many people of those units truly participated in tukayid. so even the so called "huge" SWOL only had a bit above 100 people playing the event.
You know how many games the pilots of those units had. And their W/L and Score. But its all not very much detailed showing which unit dropped in shich group sizes and what QL their individual pilots had.

In regards to what you are saying I agree completely the last matches were all that mattered for flipping the planet -MS- had 7 full 12 mans running at the end with 2 partial groups and 8 players dropping solo to affect as many matches as possible.

I think all told we affected and won 12 of the last 63 matches through this effort.

[Czarr]

Wow KCOM with 98% matches won

and the fact that the vast majority of IS units only won 60% of their matches tells why IS loses Tuk

Edited by Czarr, 16 December 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Khereg]

KHETTI, on 15 December 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

So basically the Clans didn't win Tuk 2 at all, a bunch of Mercs won it for them, eeeeew!.

The same accusation was made for Tukkayid 1.

Maybe next time a bunch of mercs will come win it for the IS...if the price is right.

Edited by Khereg, 16 December 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[Curccu]

KuroNyra, on 15 December 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

Not sur the win percentage really matter.
Prefer the official of PGI where my Unit (SMC) is third of Liao with only 26 players who played.

It should be the ONLY thing that matters.
big units being "good" because they got 300+ players and win 1/3 of the games being on top is ********, that way they lost 2 times more than won --> gained nothing to their side.

[ninthstreet]

If you want to add in matches played as a factor than all top units would go clan at every Tukayyid event for the shorter wait times. IS loyal units would have to wait in que for games a much longer amount of time than the average merc or clan loyal unit. Increasing the number of tiles wouldnt help either because then we will end up with IS doing ghost drops which no one wants.

[Khereg]

Curccu, on 16 December 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

It should be the ONLY thing that matters.

Not to take anything away from KCom, b/c that is a truly incredible win rate, but if you promote win rate in this kind of event above all else, units will be incented to ONLY drop in full 12-man's, never picking up pugs or dropping solo to lead groups of pugs.

I personally think that would just fan the flames of the pug vs unit discord and should not be encouraged.

[Czarr]

Curccu, on 16 December 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

It should be the ONLY thing that matters.
big units being "good" because they got 300+ players and win 1/3 of the games being on top is ********, that way they lost 2 times more than won --> gained nothing to their side.

yes it does matter not to embarrass some units but their were units with 100-200 plus members that finished on the bottom. So the entire notion of zerging a plant for the win is false. True you need a lot of members in your unit but you also need to win

Edited by Czarr, 16 December 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[BIoB]

I thinks its also important to note that its far far easier to win the ''Invasion'' game mode compared to ''Counter attack''.

For example, if a match was going badly for the clan team....say they were down by 10 kills, it was completely viable for them to just rush the gens and destroy Omega and finish the match with a negative kill ratio.

If a match was going badly for the inner sphere... again say they were down by ten kills......what could they do in the counter attack mode?

The entire event was always going to end up as clan victory purely because of the game modes. If we (the Inner Sphere) had the attack mode I'm sure we would of won it also) The fact that the Clans only won with 53.97% begs the question ''have the clans been nerfed a little too far?'' (to me at least).

TL;DR : The attack game mode was the deciding factor in this event

Edited by Irish BoB, 16 December 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[pwnface]

Khereg, on 16 December 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Not to take anything away from KCom, b/c that is a truly incredible win rate, but if you promote win rate in this kind of event above all else, units will be incented to ONLY drop in full 12-man's, never picking up pugs or dropping solo to lead groups of pugs.

I personally think that would just fan the flames of the pug vs unit discord and should not be encouraged.

This!

For example, EmP only had 11 players during the Tukkayid event who likely were dropping solo or in groups no larger than 4. Does anyone actually think if they rolled 10-12 mans the entire event they'd have a lower winning percentage than KCOM?

KCOM has a group of incredibly talented pilots who specialize in CW, they were one of the few groups who gave NS premades losses at all during this event although we did give them a loss or two to bring down their shiny highest win %. KCOM have some great pilots, but I wouldn't consider them the "best" in terms of skill compared to some of the comp teams out there. Without looking at things like size and frequency of premades in CW, you can't really make an accurate assessment of how good units are based purely on win percentages.

Edited by pwnface, 16 December 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Fuerchtenichts]

And here you can find a graphical representation of
"TotalWins/TotalMatches vs PlayersPlayed/CurrentMembers".
At least you need 11 CurrentMembers in your unit to be part of this diagram. There are also some similar links included showing the results of Tukayyid 1 and the CW Hardcore Challenge in a similar way. So you can take a look at the development of the different unit participating in these events. Ok, most of the comments are written in german but the diagrams should be quite easy to understand and to compare.



klick this link to enlarge the graphic

[Kuritaclan]

Irish BoB, on 16 December 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

I thinks its also important to note that its far far easier to win the ''Invasion'' game mode compared to ''Counter attack''.

For example, if a match was going badly for the clan team....say they were down by 10 kills, it was completely viable for them to just rush the gens and destroy Omega and finish the match with a negative kill ratio.

If a match was going badly for the inner sphere... again say they were down by ten kills......what could they do in the counter attack mode?

This isn't true at all. Just by arguments. If the first wave does not play out the way that it is ahead of the defenders you can not easily switch a pug to commit to a gen rush. This will only be available to a 12 man (or near that with pick ups who will commit to the leaders strat change in time), but those won't get stomped that easy anyway.

Since 12 players do not evaporate within the dropship arrival time of 30 seconds, the first man who die select his second mech without the knowing what would/should be done in a second wave. This is most likely be true for some others who die after him. So the second wave is rather spread between weight class -> Speed, so it makes objective rushes harder. If you then bring up the idea of a gen rush for the following waves, it is a little to late to coordinate a light rush for example. In most cases you have a second wave that is not "coordinate in speed" over all drop members and get ripped apart the same way the first wave was stopped. They will stretch up in the running process to the objectives and therefore can easily picked of.

Third if a bunch of randoms drop without preparation of the drop deck to make third and fourth wave a generator rush (e.g. lightwave with fast mechs that can not be stopped that easy and reach objectives in smaller amount of time as a large group), they most likely will be uneven in what they bring in the waves. I see often enough on both sides no matter if is or clan 4th wave assaults, what is in my eyes absolut crap - My approach is by default you have 10 min per wave to make it count - so you have 3 waves - and you will bring in every wave the best you can fit in - the 4th mech is therefore only backup and shouldn't be the flesh to soak up damage have much firepower but be in worst case not in line with 11 other mechs and could be focused by defenders quickly. So if someone drop with his last mech in assault your "ball" is essentially a 11man or even less and by this metric for defenders easier to be stopped.

Next point. Some maps are easier to gen rush others are not. Sulfur for example easier than Boreal. On the later map you can intercept the attackers on a bottleneck and shot their legs on a rather "long time" till they reach the gens making it easier to decimate the ball on the way to destiny. On sulfur you can not intercept "earlier". You can not start stopping them outside of the gates because you do no know which gate the ball choose to come from. The main force stay on omega what is a little to late to kill 12 man before they reach the objective. And you also rather running hot on Sulfor, what in worst case let you shot your guns only a couple times till you need to cool of, while the enemy has more time to make meters towards the objectives and when reached shoot it without getting in fast time killed, since by ripping of their armor if they are clever you will be near overheating before you bring them down. Spotting the ball before it comes through gates intercepting them early is on Sulfur without coordination harder then on Boreal.

The only advantage the clans have in my eyes "by default" in regards to play the objective game is the fixed engines which created speed classes - heavy's for example are all round about 86 kph. Because of this 12 man dropping in the same speed class will easier stay together and reach an objective together making it harder for the defenders having visual targets to fokus since they are nearer than slower mechs for example.

TLDR. Objective rushes are map dependent. Objective rush's are easier vs. noobs who can not prepare a interception line. Objectives rush in a random group will be easy to counter because if the first wave goes wrong only the third and fourth wave are left over to make the rush in coordinated style, and even then you most likely have members who are noot coordinated with a "speed" to stay with the death ball, and get dropped because your battle formation stretch out after a couple seconds of running through the objective. And the first attackers could be picked away by intercepting defenders (as long as the map supports this) easy, what even a non coordinated drop can do by default because of visual targets for fokus fire (nearest is first to kill/leg. Objective rush's needs to be ordered on prep screen - coordinated before dropship bring a wave. So to speak yes the option is within to play the objective game, but you need to commit your strat on start or it will get picked appart within the waves easy by defenders. Changing the strat up within process of the game does not work in 99% of cases i would predict!

Edited by Kuritaclan, 16 December 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[-Vompo-]

Kuritaclan, on 16 December 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

This isn't true at all. Just by arguments. If the first wave does not play out the way that it is ahead of the defenders you can not easly switch a pug to commit to a gen rush. This will only be available to a 12man, but those won't get stomped that easy anyway.

I'm pretty sure that Irish wasn't talking about a pug drop. After all this whole topic is about units and their win/loss.
12 man vs. 12 man can easily come to a point where one team is ahead by 10 kills.

Also most of my pug games the pugs have listened to a plan and even followed it pretty well. The problems start when there is a small group of unit players who are bad but think they know better than the one guy who tries to coordinate the group and just go and do their own thing. Well this is my experience in cw anyway. Only played a handful of games as pug.

[BIoB]

@Kuritaclan

So I should of been more clear and maybe not used the word ''rush'' either but let me try explain.

Destroying Omega was a viable way for the clans to win a match without having to spend at least 20-25 minutes killing all 48 opposing mechs. I'm not sure how you can't see the advantage of that.

You seem to be stuck in the mindset of pugs vs pugs in CW but don't for one minute think that it was these types of engagements that won the event for the clan side. Im sure the 100% pugs wins contributed but lets face facts, its the organised groups capable of winning matches quickly on the last day that turned the event in favour of the clans.

The organised groups on the I.S side simply did not have the option of winning the match quickly in this way. Even if only 10% of matches were secured through killing Omega within 15 minutes (I'm being super generous here) thats a massive difference........Add to that the large wait time for IS groups but that was unavoidable

It was a completely valid way of winning, nobody could say otherwise.....but if it was possible for us to do the same, we would have done it every single drop on the last day.


Not trying to diminish the win for anybody, congratulations Kcom, -MS-, 228 and co....but hopefully in the next CW event, we can all play the same gamemode

Edited by Irish BoB, 16 December 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

VompoVompatti, on 16 December 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that Irish wasn't talking about a pug drop. After all this whole topic is about units and their win/loss.
12 man vs. 12 man can easily come to a point where one team is ahead by 10 kills.

As i see it, in process you can not change to the objective game. This needs a very intense coordination. And even 12 man groups lack that. I saw it myself with CWI/DOGS creating a 12 man pick up groups lfg and ts coordinated. If you wanna change in process you need a certain dropdeck plan your waves have a somewhat cohesion - and if this is the case you mostlikely win anyway.

So to speak I doubt Irish "dreams" of clans can change strats in a blink of a drop. Nopp this isn't the case. If i wanna bring a outlast deck i have like 3 heavys and a light. If i wanna have a rush deck i bring a heavy a medium and two lights. For example. In best case. All bring the same mech so damage is not visually to fokus - so calling out the HBR is easy in a mixed dd over 12 man - if all bring HBRs well this call is not that usefull.

And now it is your turn. How much 12 mans you saw in cw droping wave after wave with one kind of mech within the wave. This only happens if the order was given we make an objective rush bring for example your ACHs in 2nd and 4th wave.

VompoVompatti, on 16 December 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Also most of my pug games the pugs have listened to a plan and even followed it pretty well. The problems start when there is a small group of unit players who are bad but think they know better than the one guy who tries to coordinate the group and just go and do their own thing. Well this is my experience in cw anyway. Only played a handful of games as pug.

I won't deny that. All following a bad plan is more likely to have no plan and or two plans hamper each other.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 16 December 2015 - 06:37 PM.