413 replies to this topic

[Dihm]

woodstock, on 05 December 2011 - 05:26 AM, said:

I would have preferred to limit customisation to canon variants and omni mechs personally ...but that does not seem to be the direction the devs have decided on.

I didn't see the option to vote for Monty Brewster, which is what I would have done as well.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Alex Wolfe, on 05 December 2011 - 09:55 AM, said:

It's not about preventing people from building "unique mechs", it's about keeping mechs' identity and prevent them being merely amorphous "gun blobs". It's not the MW4 system that enabled people to copy another person's configuration - copying cookie cutter builds and strategies has existed since games were made. It's not like MW3, with its "freedom", wasn't full of light AC/laser boats shooting at legs to trip. What exactly did MW3's mechlab help to prevent?

well it kind of does, limiting the weapons space and limiting them to certain types will cause peoples configs to clash even if they havent met on the battlefeild. ive played MW4 many times thinking "WOO yeah new awesome config i have...oh nvm everyone seems to already have it " also i wasnt suggesting a 100% copy of mw2/3 mech lab, if you have time go and try out AT1-BT look how there lab works, its best of both worlds imo, plentry restrictions for omni and battlemechs its basicly a hybrid system of the MW2/3 lab with Mw4 elements. check the link in Wolf74's post it explains the AT1-BT lab quite well.

wolf74, on 05 December 2011 - 09:07 AM, said:

Of the two choices I have here I would have to pick MW2/3 but I would have some limits on them


1st You have to the Internals of the mech to start. So you have a Normal internal Chassis or Endo-Steel internals Or Composite Internals. No on the fly swapping this.
Omni-Mechs: when they come in to the game, Lock down Armor, Engine, & Locked Gear in the unit. AKA your Puma/Adder will always have that Flamer.

Battlemechs: You have the Basic CBT Critical system, but you could do a MW4 Overlay on the mech Limiting the areas where you can put weapon system. This system you would have to look at the Mech-Stock Configuration so you can make the basic Version of them.

The Battlemech would look Something like this in AT1
http://home.grandeco...h%20Layouts.pdf

[Alex Wolfe]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 05 December 2011 - 11:40 AM, said:

well it kind of does, limiting the weapons space and limiting them to certain types will cause peoples configs to clash even if they havent met on the battlefeild. ive played MW4 many times thinking "WOO yeah new awesome config i have...oh nvm everyone seems to already have it " also i wasnt suggesting a 100% copy of mw2/3 mech lab, if you have time go and try out AT1-BT look how there lab works, its best of both worlds imo, plentry restrictions for omni and battlemechs its basicly a hybrid system of the MW2/3 lab with Mw4 elements. check the link in Wolf74's post it explains the AT1-BT lab quite well.

What I meant to say is, people would copy builds and go cookie cutter regardless of the system, but MW3 let you make any mech into an MG-boat - missile racks, guns, legs, everything could be a machine gun. Sure, it did let you make a unique build... that you could replicate on any mech with enough space. Uniqueness of the setup by sacrificing the uniqueness of the chassis is what really ground my gears there.

The system in Wolf74's post seems quite reasonable indeed (I especially like the hard-locked Omnimechs' systems). As long as a cannon is a cannon and not a missile launcher or a prop, I'm fine with it.

[Ran Ito]

Hardpoint system with different mech variants for sure.

Personally I enjoy full customization. But I remember all too well the horrible alpha strike battles and limited "viable" (to the self proclaimed hardcore) mech choices that MW downward spiraled into as a result.

Edited by Ran Ito, 05 December 2011 - 12:00 PM.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Well Im not going to do the multi-quote thing so Ill just state my feelings and the rest be demn'd. I seen people saying MW4 was closest to Canon and have to heartily disagree. MW4's Setup looked nothing like the Mech Load-out seen on the BattleMech Sheet. As for Min/Maxing MW4 threw it to new heights and loadouts could go to some serious extremes you'd never see. Want an Example? ok. Remeber when You could play League matches that the win was based on points not kills? I came up with the Points Making Beast From HeLLL, Kitfox with a Long Tom. Yeah thats right, that was me. It was all my fault you seen them coming out in droves. Why? The Most Devestating Weapon in the Mech Arsenal cramed into a mech with no armor that hauls tuchus! Why it was able to fit Ill never know but then no-one but us Beta Testers know why Mech4 Never had Directional JumpJets (The Developers were lazy is the short answer), and I suspect the same short answer applies to the Arcade Color'd Slots. Seriously if I want a NovaCat loaded out with UAC's I should beable to, and not complain that I have to make adjustments to allow for CASE and Ammo. Go Back to the Mech2/3 BattleTech style Sheet, now thats Canon. Everything else is What MicroSoft laziness dreamed up.

[Alex Wolfe]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 05 December 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

Go Back to the Mech2/3 BattleTech style Sheet, now thats Canon. Everything else is What MicroSoft laziness dreamed up.

I know the general hatred for Microsoft is a big part of why MW4 is disliked (rather than its merits as a game), but let's slow down a bit. You seem to be mistaking two things:

Canon is "what officially happened". It's in-universe. Official 'mech variants are canon. Clans being founded by Kerensky are canon. Hunchback being 50 tons is canon.

What you described in your post is merely rules for the game, which incidentally allow for construction of customized setups you've mentioned. Those rules are not canon, and neither are the setups - they aren't hard-wired within the Battletech universe, and other game makers (and other game system makers) are in no way obliged to follow them. They are merely "possibilities within the gaming system". If they make Thor an Inner Sphere battlemech, that's canon breach. If they don't allow a stock Mad Cat to carry missiles on its shoulders, something it was specifically mentioned as being able to, that's canon breach. Funnily enough - even the games themselves are not fully considered canon, why would someone's tabletop mech variant be?

But if the new rules don't let you mount Long Tom on an Uller, that's merely a balance change. Rules change with game editions, and what was possible once, may not be possible in the future, yet the canon doesn't change with it, bar a rewrite.

This is canon, and this is what any game makers are pretty much obliged to allow the players to reproduce. This is also what too much freedom would, and in fact did, obfuscate. Reasonable constrains are needed - granted, less strict than in stock MW4 - or mechs may as well not have names, profiles and arms.



Uller + Long Tom, or a full Ultra AC Nova Cat, is just a TT Battletech in-game possibility, and your private business until included in the canon by powers-that-be.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 05 December 2011 - 02:40 PM.

[metalwolf2900]

i whole heartedly agree with voodoo, the mw2/3 bt style would be nice again

[Holmes]

Note to self, listen to Alex.

[verybad]

Alex Wolfe, on 05 December 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

I know the general hatred for Microsoft is a big part of why MW4 is disliked (rather than its merits as a game), but let's slow down a bit. You seem to be mistaking two things:

Canon is "what officially happened". It's in-universe. Official 'mech variants are canon. Clans being founded by Kerensky are canon. Hunchback being 50 tons is canon.

What you described in your post is merely rules for the game, which incidentally allow for construction of customized setups you've mentioned. Those rules are not canon, and neither are the setups - they aren't hard-wired within the Battletech universe, and other game makers (and other game system makers) are in no way obliged to follow them. They are merely "possibilities within the gaming system". If they make Thor an Inner Sphere battlemech, that's canon breach. If they don't allow a stock Mad Cat to carry missiles on its shoulders, something it was specifically mentioned as being able to, that's canon breach. Funnily enough - even the games themselves are not fully considered canon, why would someone's tabletop mech variant be?

OMG, the voice of reason on a forum!

The hardpoints in MW4 gave mech classes much more personality. Rather than being generic gunboxes, An Awesome wasn't the exact equivalent of a Victor, despite them both being 80 ton mechs they were very different in the game.

Complete freedom in mech design actually reduces the amount of variety in play, as optimized mechs with the most effective shape for play take over for the majority of play. You might end up with a jumping missile boat Awesome if it is the most difficult to hit.

Completely open customization takes away the meaning of what each mech means other than it's overall tonnage. It's a boring system, and it would be a disaster IMO if the game went back to that.

Edited by verybad, 05 December 2011 - 01:14 PM.

[Black Sunder]

And having hardpoints on mechs won't prevent people from coming up with that one fit that everyone will copy right?

[Alex Wolfe]

Black Sunder, on 05 December 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

And having hardpoints on mechs won't prevent people from coming up with that one fit that everyone will copy right?

That's not a problem inherent to hardpoints or loadouts, it's inherent to games in general. Nothing will prevent so-inclined people to copy what's perceived as "the best configuration to win in the current patch". You have it in MMO's, shooters, fighting games, it will be present in MWO no matter what.

The thing is, would you rather that loadout be mech-specific ("min-maxed Catapult with its missile potential", "min-maxed Jagermech as a strong direct fire option", or totally, absolutely the same for any mech in a given weight category ("min-maxed generic 65 tonner, add X amount of weapon Y in the torso, strip armor from the arms, add heat sinks to the legs")?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 05 December 2011 - 01:38 PM.

[verybad]

Different mechs in Battletech have traditional types of armament and uses. Making them completely generic gunbags that can be used for any possible layout...eg an 8/12/8 Urbanmech...really takes a lot away from the game.

[Dlardrageth]

Poll severely lacks a third option, neither of those mentioned. Even the MW4 system was far too much biased towards Omni-Mechs. An effect PGI might want to avoid considering their projected timeline. I'mk not all against customization, I'm just in favor of making it restricted on non-Omnis and frakkin' complicated/expensive. Sure, the common canon variants and what not should be no big deal, just get an "upgrade kit" from your faction (PGI) and be done with it.

Want something extra-uber-special? Prepare for hiring a bunch of Techs, renting your own MechLab, taking ages to try to make it work etc.and paying top dollar for all that (in other words a lot of in-game cash) and give it a minuscule chance of success (5% perhaps?). Oh yes, and it's a one-time job. Not reproducable and if that chassis gets shot up under you... booyah... you just lost a dropship-load of C-bills.

You think now I'm a total ***hole with no clue what I'm talking about and you want your customized 35-ton Mech with 25 small pulse lasers right now? How about you let PGI do their work on the conventional pre-3050 Mechs first and after the in-game timeline advances far enough, there might be the chance to grab an omni-chassis. If you preclude that, there won'T be much ofg a point to slowly introduce Omni technology at all. If you can basically do the same on a conventional Mech. Here's hoping they restrict customization harshly at first, so MWO doesn't turn into yet another munchkin-fest. Or at least they'll give us a "classic" game mode where all those min-/maxed variants are banned by default.

[Barsov]

Could someone merge and moderate all previous themes about mechlab and mechs customization, please?

Edited by Barsov, 05 December 2011 - 02:17 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

This topic is such a dead horse.....

I'm still hoping for some limits. Unlimited customization gives you very little reason to try different chassis, possible balance issues aside.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Gameplay tested variants based on canon variants or an improved hardpoint system.

The critical slot system was a mech creation tool, not a mech customization tool.

[Stormwolf]

Sometimes I think that it would be best if they simply got the mech variants from the Record sheets/TRO's and closed the mechlab.
Though I suppose that tons of players would be boned if they wanted to remove a medium laser to mount a C3 slave.

Remember the good old MW2: Mercs days? You actually had to pay C-Bills to customize your mech. A complete rebuild cost you almost as much as buying a new mech.

I'd personally implement the following for mechlabs/repairs/salvage:

1. You can customize your mech as you see fit. But you would be limited to what you have in your inventory. Wanna install a new pair of ER Medium lasers to replace the old ones? Buy/salvage them and then install them.
2. Shortages could be problematic, you can't always build what you want. IIRC, MW2: mercs at one point had a shortage of PPC's and later LRM ammo. Things like these would draw the game closer to the BT universe.
3. Getting your mech completely destroyed should force a player to pick a new one from their faction RAT. Any changes made to the previous one would have to made again on the new one (which costs money again). It would be nice if you could store a template for this.
4. You can only repair components with parts your techs can support, you can't put a Clan ER large laser in your IS mech in 3050. This would ofcourse become a different story around 3052.
5. Players shouldn't be able to alter stuff like engines and internal structures. Swapping out weapons, heatsinks, jumpjets and equipment like ECM or BAP should be the only options.
6. Any mech can have jumpjets, ECM, BAP, etc. MW4 locked this out for a ton of mechs whereas there is absolutely no reason to do this in the canon. You couldn't even build a Timber Wolf Pryde for crying out loud.
7. There should be match types that only support canon-only mechs for the hardcore players.
8. No more coolant flush, be smart about how you use your weapons, it'll come back later to bite you in the ***.
9. Depict the OmniMechs like they should be, they can get different loadouts inbetween missions whereas regular BattleMechs are limited to places with fully functional mechlabs.
10. The mechmarket or whatever should spew out newer variants or mechs as they are produced. The Master Unit list was recently updated with production dates for all of them: http://www.masterunitlist.info/
11. The TT mechlab would also bring back important things like locations where equipment is stored, you could knock out a ECM or heatsink by targeting the bodypart it is located.
12. Salvaged mechs would need to be repaired with parts you buy, mechs aren't magically restored in two weeks time. It would be virtually impossible to repair Clan mechs due to a lack of parts. It would be best to sell that salvage to the Successor States and make a ton of cash.
13. Not all mechs can be repaired (due to turning into a mini mushroomcloud), but they can still be scavenged for parts (your new spare parts).
14. You shouldn't be able to simply buy and sell parts when you are behind enemy lines. Think MW3, you are on your own, anything you couldn't use got dumped somewhere.
15. Your dropship/base is your lifeline, getting that one destroyed will leave you without any repairs/reloaded ammo in the next mission (assuming that some missions are linked mini-campaigns). Any customization would also go out of the window here (until you get back to a friendly base atleast).


Just my two cents.

[Brakkyn]

Aiden Pryde's Mad Cat had jump jets. It's canon, but does not mean a Mad Cat should be allowed to simply strap on jump jets. It was limited to Aiden Pryde, because he was a major player in storylines. It's a form of artistic license that should NOT be included and made into something more common. The same goes for any heroic character in BattleTech/MechWarrior who had a personalized/customized 'Mech (Natasha Kerensky, Victor Davion, etc).

I can't really stomach the idea of somebody being given, say, a Commando as a starting 'Mech, removing all the default weapons and equipment, and smacking on six medium lasers "because they can". People can come up with some powerful custom designs, but it always ends up as a game of min/maxing.

Edited by Brakkyn, 05 December 2011 - 03:22 PM.

[Stormwolf]

Brakkyn, on 05 December 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Aiden Pryde's Mad Cat had jump jets. It's canon, but does not mean a Mad Cat should be allowed to simply strap on jump jets.

The Timber Wolf S is a common design, it also mounts jump jets.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Alex Wolfe, on 05 December 2011 - 11:53 AM, said:

What I meant to say is, people would copy builds and go cookie cutter regardless of the system, but MW3 let you make any mech into an MG-boat - missile racks, guns, legs, everything could be a machine gun. Sure, it did let you make a unique build... that you could replicate on any mech with enough space. Uniqueness of the setup by sacrificing the uniqueness of the chassis is what really ground my gears there.

The system in Wolf74's post seems quite reasonable indeed (I especially like the hard-locked Omnimechs' systems). As long as a cannon is a cannon and not a missile launcher or a prop, I'm fine with it.

yeah that graphical asthetic was limited to technology of the day, but really only mechwarrior living legends has been able to make weapon pods work (which is what omni emchs use) hopefully MWO will do the same so we dont get lasers fireing form missle racks lol

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 05 December 2011 - 04:28 PM.