44 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

PAINLESS 42, on 17 December 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

So as I stop fighting and surrender to the warm LURMY embrace of my Highlander IICs I was left with a question. Obviously given the tonnage and space, adding Artemis is a good thing, but what if you have to trade tubes for Artemis. The Highlander-IIC-B has the critical space for 4X LRM 20s, but if you add Artemis, you run out of slots and are down to a max of 2X 20+A and 2X 15+A,. Am I better going LRM-80, or LRM-70+A?

I haven't played a Clan missile boat yet, but I did extensively play IS missile boats.

My experience, and if Clan enhancement of weaponry is consistent, I'd be willing to bet going all LRM-15+Artemis would garner you the best DPS performance of any LRM combo you could make, while an all LRM5+Artemis build would get you a maximized 'troll build' for a near unending rain of cockpit shake and explosion flash.

Depending on how you want to fill that build out.

When I get around to skilling up my Highlander IIC's I'll let you know what 'feels' best...

[VirtualRiot]

All lrms except 5 and mayyybe 10 sometimes are worthless

[Roadkill]

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

I'm getting 1.1 dam/hit from my stats (because they used to be 1.1 damage)

Which confuses me. Shouldn't it be 10 or 20 damage per shot? Seems to be counting individual missiles as hits.

Missiles (all of them... LRMs, SRMs, and SSRMs) are tracked individually in your stats. If you fire an LRM-15 that counts as 15 fired, then each missile that actually hits counts as a hit. If you're at 33% with the LRM-15, that means that 5 missiles hit for every 15 you fire (which... duh, but with missiles it's actually part of every volley unlike a Gauss Rifle where it's 1 in 3 shots).

Given the alleged tighter grouping that you're supposed to get with Artemis, you should see higher hit rates provided you're firing with LOS and not indirectly. I do tend to fire indirectly a lot, but I only equip Artemis on Mechs where I don't fire indirectly so the stats should be working out better than they are for me.

I grant that the reduced lock time may be sufficient reason for some people. I don't think is on a boat... 4 tons is a lot of weight to be paying for faster lock times to me.

[LordNothing]

my rule of thumb is if your missile damage exceeds the damage from your backup weapons, use artemis. if you are mostly lerms and have a bare minimum of backup weapons or none at all, lock time is essential and you should use artemis. if you are using lerms to supplement other weapons, and like to fight at medium ranges with direct fire, then go for tubes (tubes are also great for dumbfire, which can also apply area effect against tight formations, you can deny use of a seal hole with them).

if you are running lerms (or streaks) then at bare minimum you need bap. its also good to have a way to break ecm. tag is the easiest and most reliable. narc works against single ecm mechs (unless you narc em all) but is heavy and needs ammo. but my favorite option is to bring a ppc. it can disrupt ecm long enough to get a lock, and it doesn't render an energy hardpoint useless for dealing damage. er is better unless you have other weapons for inside 90m or heat problems.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 December 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[Roadkill]

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Then again, the whole stat might be based on missiles fired, or the stat page broken (as it's known to be). 5 matches, 6700 shots? Impossible. 6700/15=446...more plausible, but I don't think I brought 1300 missiles per match in, and certainly didn't get to fire all of them.

The only stats error that I've noticed (that I can recall) is that the "matches" is often wrong. 6700/15 is what's being tracked, but the problem is that you've had more than 5 matches.

My funniest one is this:

ER LARGE LASER 1 686 603 87.90% 00:06:39 3,019

Apparently that was at least a 45-minute match.

Edited by Roadkill, 17 December 2015 - 01:02 PM.

[Khobai]

Clan LRMs ripple fire one at a time so artemis basically does nothing for them anyway

ISLRM5 and ISLRM10 dont really need it, the spreads tight enough without it

So really its only useful on the ISLRM15 and ISLRM20, but even then you have to consider TAG as a better alternative, because its only 1 ton and 1 crit TOTAL, instead of 1 ton and 1 crit PER launcher, and you need LoS anyway for Artemis. So any situation where you can use Artemis you can pretty much use TAG.

Basically TAG > Artemis and Artemis is useless. Artemis needs to do something else like increase missile crit chance and maybe even increase missile travel speed. Artemis should be like a targeting computer for missiles.

Edited by Khobai, 17 December 2015 - 01:13 PM.

[Deathlike]

I do believe in Artemis for bigger launchers (LRM15s and LRM20s), but LRM10s are kinda like SRM4s... (whatever you feel is better... with or w/o Artemis).

ALRM5s are a waste for obvious reasons (you'll usually have many of them, and you are better off not bothering)

[Cold Darkness]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

ALRM5s are a waste for obvious reasons (you'll usually have many of them, and you are better off not bothering)

the only useful alternative for my MDD ALRM 5x6, tag, 4 ERML would be 6 heatsinks. while that does have its quirks, it does not exactly make the mech superior to the artemis version. it just makes barrages longer lasting but less efficient and less deadly. it also cripples my abilities to use missiles on fast mediums. light mechs are >usually< not a very good target anyways. it will also make taking cover during missile travel time on longer ranges and reaquiring target alot harder because lockon times are obviously longer without artemis (though, thats mostly an issue during volleyfire which i only use when AMS is present).

more ammo would be wasted, because you only have so much time to use it and heavier side armaments would not be sustainable (outside of 4MPL, which will slightly improve heatefficiency)
heavier side armaments would essentially refit the mech into a different role that would most likely benefit more from other launcher sizes.

the only real alternative i see for that build would be a bigger engine, since that would allow me to make better use of my missile loadout. but thats an inner sphere thing (currently) and inner sphere doesnt have the launcher weight to have the option to >mass< boat ALRM5 effectively on a 60 ton mech (well, i think kintaro can, but it has other drawbacks for that specific setup)

[JaxRiot]

I like LRM boats and dont use Artemis on any of them.

Sure Artemis tightens the cluster of missiles, but its only useful on the heavier LRMs. The LRM 15's and 20's, plus the bonuses are only applied to Line of Sight targets anyway

So any mech able to carry LRM 15's and 20's and still carry enough ammo, will be the heavier, slower mechs. And since they are slow and heavy, they will be firing indirectly most of the time anyway. So Artemis is less useful to them.

It would be better to save the tonnage and space for ammo.

Also, Artemis doesnt do much for LRM 10 clustering, and almost nothing for LRM 5 clustering, so its a waste of tonnage and space to use Artemis on those.

If youre going to rely on Line of Sight to justify equipping Artemis bonuses, you might as well bring Pew Pew or Bang Bangs. They are far more efficient for line of sight fighting.

Artemis does almost nothing for indirect fire. Which is where LRMs shine. Which makes Artemis counter productive in my opinion

Edited by JaxRiot, 25 December 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Artemis reduces spread, increases tracking, and halves lock time.


Take Artemis.

With the exception of LRM5s (which is a moot point here, but needs to be said ultimately).

[adamts01]

I'd put Artemis on my LRM80 Jenner but then I'd only have 2 tons of ammo. I'm already running a std100 and no armor so there's nowhere else to get the weight from. But if you have the tonnage/space, it's definitely worth it.

[Paigan]

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Artemis reduces spread, increases tracking, and halves lock time.


Take Artemis.

This is a rather childish post.

You just list advantages. What you have to do for a mature answer is weigh advantages against disadvantages and come to an overall conclusion, like Roadkill does.
It's like saying "An AC20 does more damage than anything else. Only equip AC20s."
Childish.

My experience is that of Roadkill: the advantages are not worth the weight.

You can now proceed to post your also childish facepalm gecko instead of providing arguments once again to prove your ignorance.

Edited by Paigan, 26 December 2015 - 03:54 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Paigan, on 26 December 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:

This is a rather childish post.

You just list advantages. What you have to do for a mature answer is weigh advantages against disadvantages and come to an overall conclusion, like Roadkill does.
It's like saying "An AC20 does more damage than anything else. Only equip AC20s."
Childish.

My experience is that of Roadkill: the advantages are not worth the weight.

You can now proceed to post your also childish facepalm gecko instead of providing arguments once again to prove your ignorance.

I like this post because it's funny

It reminds me of my math teacher in high school who became funny instead of scary when he got angry. Of course no one dared to laugh.

[Black Fish]

Went to check the exact values of spread reduction, and saw something there that is more interesting I wasn't aware of:

From the MWO Unofficial Wiki:

Quote

Effects

• Improves the lock-on-time and tracking strength of LRMs by 50%.
  
• Improves the grouping size of SRM volleys by 34%.
  
• Does not add guidance to SRMs.
  
• Does not affect Streak SRMs at all.
  
• Using TAG and Artemis together decreases weapon lock and missile tracking strength on time by 75%
  
• Does not work on indirectly fired missiles. Line of sight from the firing unit to target must be present. <<=====
  
• Artemis replaces all bonuses from NARC even if Artemis does not have LOS^[2]
  
• Artemis allows you to fire LRMs at a location, even without a lock on a 'mech target. The missiles will track to that location.

I assume the first line states LRM volleys are 50% tighter.
However if not within LoS it won't work which will result accuracy percentages to be very similar between LRMs with and without Artemis.
Another thing to note is since the the last line is clearly wrong, I'm wondering if the 6th effect is true at all. If it is, taking Artemis is clearly not favored for LRM boats that provide indirect fire support.

P.S I would be happy to check this with someone

Edited by Black Fish, 26 December 2015 - 04:25 AM.

[adamts01]

Black Fish, on 26 December 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

Went to check the exact values of spread reduction, and saw something there that is more interesting I wasn't aware of:

From the MWO Unofficial Wiki:


I assume the first line states LRM volleys are 50% tighter.
However if not within LoS it won't work which will result accuracy percentages to be very similar between LRMs with and without Artemis.
Another thing to note is since the the last line is clearly wrong, I'm wondering if the 6th effect is true at all. If it is, taking Artemis is clearly not favored for LRM boats that provide indirect fire support.

P.S I would be happy to check this with someone

Tracking strength refers to how quickly they turn to hit a moving target.

It does affect Streaks, it's a well known bug from years ago that has never been fixed, it decreases locking time.

I always take it on my real LRM mechs, as I like to see targets and get my own locks. Lately though I haven't been running any armor at all, and I can't afford to see my target, so I've been ditching it, and been doing surprisingly well.

Edit: But yes, you need line of sight to get any benefit from Artemis.

Edited by adamts01, 26 December 2015 - 04:51 AM.

[Rhent]

Take the IICA, go with 3 CLRMA-20's, 2 LPL, 1 Tag, 1 AMS, 1 MK1 Targeting computer, and 1 JJ. You have the ability to do long and short range damage and you use your LPL's in conjunction with your LRM20's you can remove a mech from play quickly as long as you can hold you aim. Artemis primary benefit is quicker locks and you will notice it. If you only fire when have a lock, a blast of 60 LRM's will do more than chain firing off a mix of 20's and 15's.

[Johny Rocket]

Any build running Lrm5 spam artemis is bad, min 4 launchers is 4 tons 4 slots extra for it. Medium mech like the Kintaro that means I have to half my ammo or 4tons less secondary weapons. neither is worth it. Bigger builds where Im are running lrm5 spam as harassment like my mauler 1R build, Im tonnage tight and slot poor. What am I going to sacrifice, only brought 5 tons of lrm ammo, the slight advantage of Artemis would mean giving up primary firepower.

As mentioned tag is 1 ton and speeds up lock time. On the Kintaro I will often drop 1 ton of ammo for tag in pugs, because its every man for himself. In cw where I have coordination on targeting I will strip tag and heatsinks for ammo and ride the bleeding edge of overheat the entire time.

Lrm10s I only run on bigger mechs, Stalker is a perfect example, without sacrificing speed, secondary fire power or survivability(xl) you really would only get away with 2 lrm20 maybe 3 lrm15. Artemis would be ok here on paper because it would only mean 2 more tons and 2 more slots. Problem is thats a crap build so any benefit from the Artemis is lost anyway.
4 lrm10s weigh the same as 2 lrm20 with the same total tube count but cooldown faster and already group nearly twice as tight. On top of that you have them broke into 4 groups tracking independently instead of 2 which equals a better hit to ammo spent ratio. But to add Artemis would mean 4 tons 4 slots.

The cooldown on an Lrm20 is 5.5sec its 4sec on the 10s, now that the quirks on most mechs have been generalized there really is no reason to ever bring the bigger launchers that Artemis would help unless you have a mech that is hardpoint poor.
In that case a smaller launcher would still be prudent because you aren't boating so need tonnage for your other weapons.

[Jun Watarase]

Does anyone have actual stats on how much artemis reduces the lockon time by?

[Novakaine]

TB Xiomburg, on 17 December 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Is not generally worth the extra weight vs extra ammo. I am not willing to waste a precious slot to Artemis and extra tonnage. With every LRM that you do this to it takes away a 180 missiles. With three LRM 15's this is 540 rounds (or 36 shots). this gets worse with LRM 20's, taking away 27 shots.

With the amount of misses with LRMs, it is not worth the weight vs ammo vs potential shots vs low probability of hitting the target(s).

% mean nothing until you really dig down into them and this shows Artemis sucks:

LRM 5 + ARTEMIS accuracy is at 28.39% with 5 missiles launched, you will hit with 1.42 of them.
LRM 10 + ARTEMIS accuracy is at 31.22% with 10 missiles launched, you will hit with 3.12 of them.
LRM 15 + ARTEMIS accuracy is at 32.31% with 15 missiles launched, you will hit with 4.85 of them.
LRM 20 + ARTEMIS accuracy is at 40.58% with 20 missiles launched, you will hit with 8.12 of them.

LRM 5 accuracy is at 29.93% with 5 missiles launched, you will hit with 1.50 of them.
LRM 10 accuracy is at 30.71% with 10 missiles launched, you will hit with 3.07 of them.
LRM 15 accuracy is at 28.50% with 15 missiles launched, you will hit with 4.28 of them.
LRM 20 accuracy is at 35.65% with 20 missiles launched, you will hit with 7.13 of them.

Artemis vs Non Artemis

LRM 5 vs LRMwA 5 you hit -0.08 a missile more with Artemis.

LRM 10 vs LRMwA 10 you hit with 0.05 a missile launch more with Artemis, you lose less than one missile per shot compared.

LRM 15 vs LRMwA 15 you hit with 0.57 a missile launch more with Artemis, you lose less than one missile per shot compared.

LRM 20 vs LRMwA 20 you hit with 0.99 a missile launch more with Artemis, you lose less than one missile per shot compared.

With less then one missile difference, I would rather have the staying power with extra shots. These extra shots make you more effective then hitting with less than one missile per launch.

Novakaine approved.

[Johny Rocket]

Jun Watarase, on 26 December 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

Does anyone have actual stats on how much artemis reduces the lockon time by?

Nothing on sarna or the forums but from my own experience its less than half. Which means on an unshielded target you have LOS on it is a fraction of a sec. Only place its really useful is on shielded mechs but you won't be able to lock at range without some other means like a teammate, tag or uav and you still have to have LOS yourself.
If you have a tag and LOS what is the point of Artemis? Small bonus that doesn't add enough to compensate for the weight/slots.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 26 December 2015 - 07:12 AM.