482 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

Overall I like the propostition in the OP, it would turn the PPC into a once again useful weapon outside of specific uses.

However, I'm not a fan of the scaling damage, just simply cut the standard PPC to 5 damage under 90m flat. It would keep it from being useless under 90m while still being less effective than the ERPPCs which are designed to compensate for this.

Yes to the ER and PPC heat reductions, however I'll keep the heat on the CERPPC if we get the damage split removed or at least mitigated. Full 15 damage or I'll take a 13/1/1 split at least.

Hold on, this is all scattered...

PPC:
-5 damage under 90m,
-increase to current ERPPC speed
-reduce heat by 1

ERPPC
-Increase projectile speed
-keep heat (to compensate for full damage under 90m, faster projectile, and longer range)

CERPPC
-Increase projectile speed(?)
-keep heat
-change damage to single target 15 or 13/1/1 split.

[Russhuster]

C-ERPPC Fix the Bug !!!
The Clan-PPC bug is known for years now but nothing happens
as long as tis bug exists very few will use that weapon, because what is a wep worth that does fly right through your target without inflicting damage?
THATS why you dont see that weapon used very much

it is abolutely obsolete to discus a weapon overhaul while the elementary ,echanic of that weap is not working

so again

FIRST FIX THE BUG
and as youre just at troubleshooting,.. fix the C-UAC Bug as well

[Bishop Steiner]

Eldagore, on 20 December 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

LOL

So I suggest this a few pages back, get told it's not going to fix them. New guy shows up, and its great!!

I am done here. Not to bash new guy, I just find it amusing the people being most vocal in the thread are so wishy washy.

and you got told it was not going to work (under what we were proposing) why? Too complex. Same as this guy. Was I a **** about it? NO. Tell you to piss off with your ideas, no?

So if you are gonna bunch your panties, that's on you.

MauttyKoray, on 20 December 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

Overall I like the propostition in the OP, it would turn the PPC into a once again useful weapon outside of specific uses.

However, I'm not a fan of the scaling damage, just simply cut the standard PPC to 5 damage under 90m flat. It would keep it from being useless under 90m while still being less effective than the ERPPCs which are designed to compensate for this.

Yes to the ER and PPC heat reductions, however I'll keep the heat on the CERPPC if we get the damage split removed or at least mitigated. Full 15 damage or I'll take a 13/1/1 split at least.

Hold on, this is all scattered...

PPC:
-5 damage under 90m,
-increase to current ERPPC speed
-reduce heat by 1

ERPPC
-Increase projectile speed
-keep heat (to compensate for full damage under 90m, faster projectile, and longer range)

CERPPC
-Increase projectile speed(?)
-keep heat
-change damage to single target 15 or 13/1/1 split.

can't get behind single 15 dmg, I think that is pushing it too far, and honestly, a shorter range harder hitting ppc synergizes with clan ACs better, IMO.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 December 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Eldagore, on 20 December 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

LOL

So I suggest this a few pages back, get told it's not going to fix them. New guy shows up, and its great!!

I am done here. Not to bash new guy, I just find it amusing the people being most vocal in the thread are so wishy washy.

Your posts were about balancing the weapon by applying secondary effects, and by totally altering the functionality of the various PPC family versions. Secondary functions alone will not make the weapon worth while, though they can be wonderful additions to the weapon once it has already gotten close, but not quite, at a state of balance - as if it is balanced before secondary functionality it will be too good with secondary functionality.

The concept of totally changing the primary functionality behind each type of PPC is not something I can get behind. Aside from the lore aspect of it, from a player understanding standpoint it makes no sense that two weapons that are named the same and look the same function differently. It is unintuitive like that.

I also don't think I personally responded to your comments earlier.

TL;DR: I like the idea of secondary functions, but I dislike the idea of totally rewriting what each weapon does as if they were totally unrelated weapon systems. I also don't think secondary functions are good primary balance mechanisms if the weapon itself is still junk.

Further, secondary functions add complexity. We want to keep this simple because simple means "easy to test and easy to implement."

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 December 2015 - 03:54 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 December 2015 - 03:34 PM, said:

It's certainly a more interesting use of splash as a mechanic, I'll give you that. It could also allow a faster projectile if it was only dealing "full" pinpoint damage at a very specific range and decreased below that. However this verges on complicated coding, and as a result makes it much harder to implement.

Besides splash damage, isn't one of the components the diameter of the incoming projectile, where the damage itself could be projected on at least two sections if it hits on that boundary?

[Pariah Devalis]

Tarl Cabot, on 20 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Besides splash damage, isn't one of the components the diameter of the incoming projectile, where the damage itself could be projected on at least two sections if it hits on that boundary?

Na. As I understand it the ERPPC splash code is a simple "if hit here, put this % damage here and here (excluding the head)" sort of deal. The projectile itself never covers two components. That said, I wonder how the game determines which section gets hit by an attack by anything if it hits exactly, and I mean exactly on the demarcation line of two conjoined segments. How does it determine which part registers the primary hit?

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 December 2015 - 04:01 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 December 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

Na. As I understand it the ERPPC splash code is a simple "if hit here, put this % damage here and here (excluding the head)" sort of deal. The projectile itself never covers two components. That said, I wonder how the game determines which section gets hit by an attack by anything if it hits exactly, and I mean exactly on the demarcation line of two conjoined segments. How does it determine which part registers the primary hit?

also wonder, since judging by it's proclivity to catch on terrain hitboxes, seems like PPC has a wide footprint

[Pariah Devalis]

Do people have non-registration issues with IS ERPPC, by chance? I find it hard to believe the non-registering impacts are specifically tied to anything with the letters P-P-C in them in that order. If it is just the C-ERPPC, perhaps the non-registration is related to the splash mechanic itself. In which case that's a pretty good reason to eliminate it altogether.

Also would be a good reason for me to rethink the LB suggestion, if that is the case.

Edit: Perhaps it could also be the velocity of the projectile just being prone to packet loss? In which case, it should be replicable with an IS UAC5, or two AC5 in chain fire.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 December 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 December 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Do people have non-registration issues with IS ERPPC, by chance? I find it hard to believe the non-registering impacts are specifically tied to anything with the letters P-P-C in them in that order. If it is just the C-ERPPC, perhaps the non-registration is related to the splash mechanic itself. In which case that's a pretty good reason to eliminate it altogether.

Also would be a good reason for me to rethink the LB suggestion, if that is the case.

Edit: Perhaps it could also be the velocity of the projectile just being prone to packet loss? In which case, it should be replicable with an IS UAC5, or two AC5 in chain fire.

well, the you got the usual which everything gets from time to time, but I have noticed grouped PPCs of ALL sorts are more prone to not register than other weapons. Hence my MADs PPCs being on chainfire, instead of my preferred alpha/beta triggers.

[cazidin]

I know the poptart meta was terrible but... Gauss Rifles do 15 point of damage, why not Clan ER PPCs which don't have the benefits of zero heat and super velocity if the Clan ER PPC had a similar cooldown? (E.g. 5-6 seconds.)

[Bishop Steiner]

cazidin, on 20 December 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

I know the poptart meta was terrible but... Gauss Rifles do 15 point of damage, why not Clan ER PPCs which don't have the benefits of zero heat and super velocity if the Clan ER PPC had a similar cooldown? (E.g. 5-6 seconds.)

ugh... please don't do that to my PPCs... I like infighting... and the clans need effective in fighting weapons, not less..

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

well, the you got the usual which everything gets from time to time, but I have noticed grouped PPCs of ALL sorts are more prone to not register than other weapons. Hence my MADs PPCs being on chainfire, instead of my preferred alpha/beta triggers.

It's not limited to PPCs... it applies to SRMs as well. Streaks/LRMs aren't as affected on the other hand.

[Lockon StratosII]

What do you guys think would be the optimal travel time to max distance for PPC and ERPPC?

[Matthew Ace]

Lockon StratosII, on 20 December 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

What do you guys think would be the optimal travel time to max distance for PPC and ERPPC?

I'm going to assume by "max distance", you meant optimal range.

My opinion: Somewhere around 0.45 sec to reach maximum TT long range (this may be different from MWO optimal range like ER PPC 690m vs 810m).

This would put IS PPC at 1200m/s instead of 1100m/s, and both IS and Clan ER PPC at 1533m/s instead of 1200m/s.

Again, based on my earlier post, I would prefer velocity not to be buffed much (the above velocity I mentioned is starting to tread into dangerous territory), and instead have its actual projectile size be increased to reflect its size visually. Oh, and resolve its love affair with terrain hitbox too.

Matthew Ace, on 19 December 2015 - 05:23 AM, said:

• Rather than boost to velocity, the actual projectile size needs to be increased to be representative of its graphics; I can't count the number of times where visually, the PPCs should have hit, but instead glanced past the 'Mech. I strongly believe this is possible because back in closed beta, they made adjustments to such variables for Autocannons.
  
  • If we really really must boost velocity (especially if the above is not doable), some velocity boost as an alternative is alright; think somewhere around 1300-1400 m/s for both IS and Clan ER PPC. Leave it at that; its speed should be such that it's slightly easier to use than now, BUT not to the point where little leading is required at max optimal range.

Assuming projectile size is fixed and velocity is little changed, if any, something I think would be interesting and I'd like to give a spin is this (bearing in mind the weapon needs to be kept at high-risk high-reward and to prevent the PPC meta from happening again):

• IS PPC - Keep heat at 10, return the scaling damage at minimum range (New mechanics for a minimum range is fine too). Further boost to optimal range from 540M to 600M optional. For maximum effect, I would even boost the damage to 12, but make cooldown 6 sec (5 if that is too long). The longer cooldown also makes for easier handling of heat. (At 6 sec cooldown - HPS: 1.67, DPS: 2.00 / At 5 sec cooldown - HPS 2.00, DPS 2.40 compared to current HPS: 2.5, DPS 2.5)
  
• IS ER PPC - Reduced heat to 13.5, raise damage to 12. Increase cooldown to the same value as mentioned in IS PPC.(At 6 sec cooldown - HPS: 2.25, DPS: 2.00 / At 5 sec cooldown - HPS 2.70, DPS 2.40 compared to current HPS: 3.75, DPS 2.5). Throw velocity a bone and bump up to 1300 if that's not enough.
  
• Clan ER PPC - Changed to 14 pinpoint damage, BUT, heat increased to 16, cooldown increased to 7 sec if IS counterparts are pegged at 6 sec (6 sec if IS counterparts gets 5 sec cooldown). (At 7 sec cooldown - HPS 2.28, DPS: 2.00 / At 6 sec cooldown - HPS 2.67, DPS 2.33). Throw velocity a bone and bump up to 1300 if that's not enough.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 20 December 2015 - 06:11 PM.

[SirLANsalot]

no idea why people keep saying PPC is bad....learn to shoot?

I never have had an issue with hitting things a long range with PPC, ER or otherwise, regardless of the speed, just means you need to lead the target more, a simple skill adjustment.

Heat is another high skill level thing to work on as well. Twin ERPPC is very hot and having 15 or more DHS can mitigate the heat some but you wont be firing more then 2-3 shots in a row before needing to cool off (hint: use some ballistics during that time).
Normal PPC heat has never been an issue, its always been that 90m minimum range, scaling or otherwise, coupled with the shorter optimal range, it literally has a double negative on its when stacked against its brothers.


I feel there really is no need to adjust the PPC, maybe tweak its heat some to make it more attractive to the scrub-lords out there. Oh and PPC/Gauss never died, still very alive and well, but again, you must use some SKILL to use it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lockon StratosII, on 20 December 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

What do you guys think would be the optimal travel time to max distance for PPC and ERPPC?

I'd be content with exactly what is in my OP.

Gives an across the board improvement, makes them all distinct, and leaves room for specific mechs to have mild quirks on them, while removing any need for insane 40-50% quirks.

[Lockon StratosII]

For some reason I can't quote so here goes manually:

@Matthew Ace
yes I meant optimal range. So 0.45 and 0.53 sec in MWO terms for PPC and ERPPC

@Bishop Steiner
also in the same ballpark of 0.4 to 0.55 as Matthew. Well at least we agree on that (with the exeption that clan and IS ER version should have the same speed)

[Quaamik]

SirLANsalot, on 20 December 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

no idea why people keep saying PPC is bad....learn to shoot?

Because its broken.
- It's hit registry doesn't work.
-They produce the least damage for their heat in the game.

Quote

I never have had an issue with hitting things a long range with PPC, ER or otherwise, regardless of the speed, just means you need to lead the target more, a simple skill adjustment.

Hitting them isn't the problem.

Doing damage on the other hand ....

I've personally hit a Mad Dog at 300 meters with 6 consecutive C-ERPPCs in the same spot (he was shut down). He powered up and walked off with one side torso showing yellow outline. The pin point portion of the damage should have destroyed th center torso. The splash alone should have done more than what the entire damage was.

Quote

Heat is another high skill level thing to work on.....

Managing heat is a skill thing.

But when a ER PPC does 10 damage for 15 heat, and a ERLL dos 9 for 8, and an LPL does 11 for 10, wht sense does it make to EVER take the ERPPC?

Clan ERPPCS are even worse. At least in IS the ER PPC has a range advantage over the lasers.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lockon StratosII, on 20 December 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

For some reason I can't quote so here goes manually:

@Matthew Ace
yes I meant optimal range. So 0.45 and 0.53 sec in MWO terms for PPC and ERPPC

@Bishop Steiner
also in the same ballpark of 0.4 to 0.55 as Matthew. Well at least we agree on that (with the exeption that clan and IS ER version should have the same speed)

clan weighs less, is smaller. Where's the trade off?

[Lockon StratosII]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

clan weighs less, is smaller. Where's the trade off?

hmmmm qouting works now....

There would be in the idea I had few pages ago, gonna whip up some numbers in the morning (it's 4AM here) so you can look at the general idea I had in mind