482 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

1400 m/s is way too slow for an 810 m weapon.

[xXBagheeraXx]

No. I'd much rather the clan ERppcs be better at long ranges. Buff the velocity to 1500, no splash, base damage to 13, leave the range the same....drop the heat by 1 point or so.

if you wanna brawl, get some pulse lasers...

[LegendaryArticuno]

PPC's should have 0.5 sec stun on hit.

[GenghisJr]

i would make a few simple fixes, firstly the ER PPC becomes a short range PPC because thats what it is used for. Reduce its maximum range accordingly.
Normal PPC becomes the ER PPC, retains the 90m minimum and maybe extend its maximum range.
Perhaps adjust the heat a little taking into account the their new roles.
The clan ERPPC sound effect is rubbish (so are SRM's) make them sound less like drum cymbals.

[Silas7]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) The Inner Sphere PPC:
-Raise Speed to 1400 m/s
-Bring back the scaling minimum range with one change: scales to a minimum of 5 damage.

-So: DMG 10, Heat 10, Velocity 1400 m/s, Range 90*-540/1080
*see minimum range scaling

2) The Inners Sphere ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt.
-Increase Projectile Velocity to 1500 m/s

-So: DMG 10, Heat 14, Velocity 1500 m/s, Range 810/1620


3) The Clan ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt
-Remove splash damage, increase base projectile damage to 12.5 or 13 dmg
-Leave velocity the same, or mild boost. Possibly shorter range? Hits harder, weighs less, 1 crit smaller, needs a trade off

-So: DMG 12.5/13, Heat 14, Velocity 1200-1300 m/s, Range 750/1500*
*(or 810/1620 if that is too much a trade off, but without the extra projectile speed, of limited use at extreme ranges anyhow)

I like most of this, the only thing I would do is bump IS erppc damage to 11 along with the other changes, to help it retain some punch if your engaged outside of optimal range and to reward players that can land a shot within that optimal range, knowing the damage was comparable to a Lpl. It still runs much hotter and take one more crit slot than a Lpl so it wont overthrow the Lpl as a mid range option. This also gives players a more pronounced choice between ErLL's ease of landing a hit at long range, heat generation and lighter weight/crit slot vs Erppc's increased damage and ecm short-out.

[Gorgo7]

Increase all PPC crit chance.
Retain ECM disruption, add beagle disruption, any target struck with a PPC becomes apparent to ALL players at any range on the map for 4 seconds.

PPC 9 Heat,
ERPPC 13 Heat
Clan ERPPC 13 Heat

Same damage, same range, adjust velocity to double that of it's effective range.

Have a great day!

[Quaamik]

Roles for different types of PPCs ?!?!? Blasphemy! How dare you interject common sense.

Seriously though, that might be a good way to differentiate the IS PPCs. But I’d take a little different tact. Since PPCs are the lower heat / lower range of the two, and ER PPCs have the “extended range” right in the name, how about optimizing PPCs for brawling / mid-range, and ER PPCs for long range?

Proposal:

PPC: 10 damage, 9 heat, 3.75 second cycle, no minimum range, same velocity and max range as current.
ER PPC: 10+1.5+1.5 damage (total 13), 13 heat, 4.25 second cycle, scaled damage under 90 meters, 1500 mps velocity, same max range
--- Quirks
----------- Mechs that were intended for Brawlers with PPCs, to let them better use the PPCs in brawling, (EITHER / OR):
-------------------- up to 10% heat reduction on PPCs (not on ER PPCs) (maximum reduction to 8 heat)
-------------------- up to 7% decrease in cycle time on PPCs (not on ER PPCs) (maximum reduction to 3.5 second cycle)
----------- Mechs that were intended for long range with ER PPCs, to let them better use the ER PPCs at range, (MAX combination of 1 or 2):
-------------------- up to 5% velocity increase on ER PPCs (not on PPCs) (velocity of up to 1575 mps)
-------------------- up to 8% decrease in heat on ER PPCs (not on PPCs) (maximum reduction to 12 heat)
-------------------- up to 20% reduction in minimum range (best case becomes scaled damage under 72 meters)
-------------------- up to 5% increase in range (best case range 1701 meters)
Note that quirks should ONLY be used on certain underperforming chassis, or on mechs where lore dictated they normally had those weapons to encourage people taking them rather than lasers.

It leaves Clans in a lurch though. They would still need balance, and as there is only one for them the CERPPC has to fill both roles. So, in the “different but equal” vein that they keep trying to balance clans with, how about: (note, the hit registry would still HAVE to be fixed to get the splash damage to score correctly)

Proposal:

C-ERPPC: 10+3+3 damage (total 16), 15 heat, 4 second cycle, no minimum range, max range 1675 (up 55 meters from current, and from IS ERPPC), 1450 mps velocity
--- Quirks
----------- Mechs that were intended for Brawlers with C-ERPPCs, to let them better use them in brawling, (EITHER / OR):
-------------------- up to 7% heat reduction on C- ERPPCs (maximum reduction to 14 heat)
-------------------- up to 6% decrease in cycle time on C- ERPPCs (maximum reduction to 3.75 second cycle)
----------- Mechs that were intended for long range with C-ERPPCs, to let them better use them at range, (EITHER / OR / BOTH, as needed):
-------------------- up to 10% velocity increase on C- ERPPCs (velocity of up to 1595 mps)
-------------------- up to 5% increase in range (best case range 1759 meters)
Note that quirks should ONLY be used on certain underperforming chassis, or on mechs where lore dictated they normally had those weapons to encourage people taking them rather than lasers.

[Emmett Fetladral]

Gorgo7, on 08 February 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Increase all PPC crit chance.
Retain ECM disruption, add beagle disruption, any target struck with a PPC becomes apparent to ALL players at any range on the map for 4 seconds.

PPC 9 Heat,
ERPPC 13 Heat
Clan ERPPC 13 Heat

Same damage, same range, adjust velocity to double that of it's effective range.

Have a great day!

Sounds good to me so far. For the PPC I additionally would like to see the minimum range either completely removed or at least give it some damage within the 90m (5 to 7).

[Quaamik]

I like the idea of screwing up more than just ECM and disabling a beagle probe. Going further, perhaps loss of target lock, loss of command console or target computer bonuses all for a brief time. All would add flavor, and give a slight edge to them. Another possibility might be to have all FoF indicators (red or blue triangles) disappear for 1 – 2 seconds …….

On second thought, those “secondary effects” could get out of control and into the OP category. Maybe for each additional system that is added in that a PPC would affect, we might need to reduce the time of the effect by 1 second.

Increased crit chance I don’t think is wise. They are already the only energy weapon that’s pinpoint. That’s enough on that end.

Making a target visible on the map is interesting. I think it would make the PPC family too powerful though. It would push them too far out of the role, making them into a favorite for scouting mechs to “spotlight” the enemy and replacing tag lasers on any mech that could carry them. Imagine the LRM spam for a target that for 4 seconds was visible to every LRM boat, even if no one still had line of sight, no matter nearby ECM coverage?

As for velocity double the max range, can you imagine the new meta with ERPPCs and CERPPs at 3240 mps? Think unlimited ammo gauss cannons.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

After some time using the PPCs on both IS and Clan sides, I think I've come to a conclusion.

The problem is in both the quirks, and in the weapon itself. There are mechs that are stupidly effective with PPCs (particularly IS mechs with +40 or +50% PPC/ERPPC velocity, and -20% or greater heat reduction, among other generic Energy buffs) and others that are not. Of those that are not, they are often crippled by either being incapable of dissipating heat quickly enough (e.g. any light or medium that can't have the full complement of 10 TrueDubs and a few extra PoorDubs), or are too light to pack at least two PPCs (lights, or mediums with hardpoint starvation).

It's time to normalise the quirks and the weapon, I think. Given that -20% heat reduction seems to be the break-even point where PPCs start to be about as useful as a LPL, I think it would be fair to dial back the heat to 8 for PPCs, and 12 for both IS and Clan ERPPCs. Range seems to be an issue with standard PPCs, which are in this weird spot where they are almost AC/10 brawling weapons but have a minimum range therefore preventing use in a place where they feel right. Let 0.5 sec be the baseline time-to-optimal-range for these projectiles, making them somewhat more comfortable to use.
Clan PPCs have a rather useless splash component. It would be overpowered to allow them to have both weight and damage benefits over IS ERPPCs by putting all of it as a single packet of damage, but in their current state it doesn't exactly do much other than land the occasional lucky CT core when you hit the ST of an enemy. I would turn this into maybe 13 damage for 12 heat, instead of 10 + (2.5 * 2) for 15. Add more cooldown to bring the DPS closer to the IS versions.

Of course, this would cause them to be really quite powerful at brawling, as PPCs actually don't have cooldown that's terrible. Giving them more cooldown in exchange for velocity will be a fair exchange.

This is all assuming that quirks get severely toned down, of course. No more than 10% buffs to ANY statistic.

So in summary:

IS PPC:
Heat 10 -> 8
Damage 10 -> 5 at 0m, ramping to 10 at 90m.
Cooldown 4s -> 4.5s
Range 540m / 1080m -> 600m / 1200m
Velocity 1100m/s -> 1200m

IS ERPPC:
Heat 15 -> 11
Damage 10 -> 10
Cooldown 4s -> 4.5s
Range 810m / 1620m -> 810m / 1620m
Velocity 1200m/s -> 1620m/s

Clan ERPPC:
Heat 15 -> 12
Damage 10 + (2.5 *2) -> 13
Cooldown 4s -> 5s
Range 810m / 1620m -> 950m / 1900m
Velocity 1900m/s

[Ted Wayz]

Not sure how increased speed helps. Whatever speed it is you learn to lead at the speed it is at.

And removing splash?! ZOMG. I would treat it like a long range SRM. Improve the grouping but don't remove the splash.

But at the end of the day the heat is the heart of the matter. Make the penalty at greater than 3 PPC/ERPPC, not 2. Can fire 3 Large pulses with impunity, let PPCs at least fire 3 without penalty while keeping the same heat contribution.

[Cabusha]

Biggest thing they need to do is increase the size of the projectile hit box to match the visual. It's always had a tiny projectile that squeezes thru gaps in arms and legs, while the visual looks like a hit. Leads to a very frustrating weapon.

[Gorgo7]

Quaamik, on 08 February 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

I like the idea of screwing up more than just ECM and disabling a beagle probe. Going further, perhaps loss of target lock, loss of command console or target computer bonuses all for a brief time. All would add flavor, and give a slight edge to them. Another possibility might be to have all FoF indicators (red or blue triangles) disappear for 1 – 2 seconds …….

On second thought, those “secondary effects” could get out of control and into the OP category. Maybe for each additional system that is added in that a PPC would affect, we might need to reduce the time of the effect by 1 second.

Increased crit chance I don’t think is wise. They are already the only energy weapon that’s pinpoint. That’s enough on that end.

Making a target visible on the map is interesting. I think it would make the PPC family too powerful though. It would push them too far out of the role, making them into a favorite for scouting mechs to “spotlight” the enemy and replacing tag lasers on any mech that could carry them. Imagine the LRM spam for a target that for 4 seconds was visible to every LRM boat, even if no one still had line of sight, no matter nearby ECM coverage?

As for velocity double the max range, can you imagine the new meta with ERPPCs and CERPPs at 3240 mps? Think unlimited ammo gauss cannons.

Yes, good point about LRM madness.
Might be fun to try on the beta server though...
Velocity would be x2 max effective range...ie.1080 for PPC, ER 1620 m/s, Clan ERPPC 1620 m/s as spelled out by FOX above.
Would love to see them get Electronic disruption capability expanded over ECM though.
I think the ability to carry PPC's should be a quirk in and of itself.

My two cents.

[Kin3ticX]

-improve the base speed, limit velocity quirks to 20%

-drop heat on the ERPPC C/ERPPC down to 13 or 14 (in 2013, PPC heat was down to 7 and ERPPC heat was 12)

-use heat scaling to target lower alphas with lasers (in Dec 2014, IS LL/ERLL/LPL weapon limits were increased from 2 to 3 weapons rather than reducing Clan 2xLPL+ERML laser vomit alphas)

Since then, the Clan heat pool and ERML/MPL range has been nerfed

At the height of the poptart meta, 20/25/30/35 alphas were considered acceptable.

2 PPCs have a hard time competing with getting zapped with 50 damage

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

To everyone saying ppc's need to be " fixed ". Well the only thing that needs to be " fixed " is your skill level or your mech build. IS PPC's are great on quirked mechs, and the clan erppc has always been good on certain builds. If you cant snipe with em past 1000 meters with a tc1 or especially a clan quirked mech ( warhawk ) its you who is the problem, not the weapon. L2P.

And always remember, PPC's dont suck, you do.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Alwrath, on 08 February 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

To everyone saying ppc's need to be " fixed ". Well the only thing that needs to be " fixed " is your skill level or your mech build. IS PPC's are great on quirked mechs, and the clan erppc has always been good on certain builds. If you cant snipe with em past 1000 meters with a tc1 or especially a clan quirked mech ( warhawk ) its you who is the problem, not the weapon. L2P.

And always remember, PPC's dont suck, you do.

I'll point out the paradox in your statement. QUIRKED mechs.

They work on unquirked mechs, yes. Are they great? No. They're big, they're heavy, and ton-for-ton, they're nowhere near as useful as LPLs of equal mass. Mediocre, if anything, and FAR too hot for what they bring to the table.

This is a discussion to determine how to bring the PPC back into relevance for all mechs, and I do not believe your comments are constructive in any manner. Saying that someone (or in this case, everyone) sucks with a certain weapon as a blanket statement is the epitome of ignorance and arrogance; you have no data to draw such a conclusion.

Furthermore, saying that

Quote

IS PPC's are great on quirked mechs

and

Quote

especially a clan quirked mech ( warhawk )

only reinforces the view that there exists a problem. After all, if there wasn't a problem with the weapon system, why would it require quirks to be functionally viable on a mech?

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 08 February 2016 - 04:19 PM.

[cazidin]

Alwrath, PPCs may be good on quirked mechs - but they shouldn't need quirks to be good. Most consider them an inferior alternative to lasers. Personally, I think reducing the heat by about 10-15% and increasing velocity by 25-30% will make a significant difference.

(Also increase AC velocity and SRM ammo to 120/ton but that's another matter!)

[Y E O N N E]

Alwrath, on 08 February 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

To everyone saying ppc's need to be " fixed ". Well the only thing that needs to be " fixed " is your skill level or your mech build. IS PPC's are great on quirked mechs, and the clan erppc has always been good on certain builds. If you cant snipe with em past 1000 meters with a tc1 or especially a clan quirked mech ( warhawk ) its you who is the problem, not the weapon. L2P.

And always remember, PPC's dont suck, you do.

I do just fine with PPCs. Fantastic, even.

They still suck.

[Quaamik]

The balance is different than making a weapon only usefull on certain specific mechs.

When a weapon needs 50% bumps in the quirks to make ituseAble, it's broken.

[FLG 01]

Even with +50% velocity and -10% heat quirks on the MAD-3R, the IS ERPPC is near useless due to excessive heat. The regular PPC is ok with these quirks if you have a backup for short range combat and don't need to fight ER battles.

But yes, saying one weapon is useless and the other is ok under certain conditions on a super quirked Mech known for the use of both these weapons.... well that says a lot.