38 replies to this topic

[0bsidion]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Not sure I agree. They have two things over their IS counterparts: Usually more firepower, and Clan Components (XL, Ferro, Endo, DHS). While I won't, and in fact have been on record saying those alone don't OP them over their IS counterparts, in most cases it keeps them in the same ball park (riddle me this, on average, how many Inner Sphere Orions and Highlanders do you see in the average match?).

They are a bit more fragile, but also outgun them. A tradeoff. Is it a balanced one? Possibly not, but I would prefer more than 3 days data before making sweeping changes, personally.

If, IF, IF, I were to say "Buff them RUSS!", I would start with:
1) Re-evaluating the hitboxes, like this thread is about.
2) if more is needed, look at giving them similar mobility quirks to their IS Analogues.
3) If needed, consider structure buffs (mostly for areas that are just damage magnets, like any other chassis)
4) Not come within an AU of looking at offensive quirks.

And in that order, only ascending if it proves necessary. The issue, is people want them to fill the same exact roles as their IS counterparts. That how I started too, with my HBK-IIC-O. These aren't your IS mechs with Clan Tech. Which is, IMO, a good thing. If my HBK-IIC was just as good a brawler as my HBK-4G, PLUS had clan XL, plasu had JJs... why would i EVER use my 4G again?

TBH I'd take ST structure quirks over pretty much any other quirks on the Hunchie IIC. Yeah, more agility is nice and all, and it feels noticeably more sluggish than the IS version, but it's not that bad. Getting your ST blown off after a couple hits? That is not a good time.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Larger arms protect side torsos. Larger CTs protect the enemy.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 18 December 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Larger arms protect side torsos. Larger CTs protect the enemy.

Friends don't let friends have large torsos.

[Christof Romulus]

I thought that Clam Two Sea mechs were going to be fairly overpowered.

Thankfully, as this is the first wave of the Too See, PGI decided to take the absolute worst mechs of the Inner Sphere and give them to Clam to see how it went.

Turns out bad hitboxes matter quite a bit.

PGI also dropped a balance change right before the release of the Tootsie mechs which I think helped out a lot, to keep those uncontrollable alphas down.

Currently, I don't think the IIC mechs need structure upgrades right now. They bring so much firepower to the table - which is a point that simply can't be understated - on chassis that are LIKELY bringing the largest engine possible.

Clam Jenner does 72 point alphas moving at 156kph, for example. Keeping this all in perspective - the AS7-S bringing an AC 20 and 4 SRM 6's has a 71.5 point alpha and moves at 61 kph. That's 35 tons of Clan mech vs 100 tons of Inner Sphere mech. .5 more damage at nearly 100kph faster.

I can understand that Clammers at this point are used to being able to roll hits for days off their timbertorsos, but when you're packing this much firepower, you can't also have all the durability.

[Ace Selin]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Shoulder extension is the way to go, without adding quirks. A skill based damage mitigator.

Yep, im ok with this proposal

[Johny Rocket]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

https://twitter.com/...658662454865921


Essentially, they want to give it more CT, making it's "potbelly" able to be hit from the sides. This is also, not a coincidence how they "fixed" the Catapult, Dragon. The difference? The Dragon and Catapult both also have pretty substantial structure buffs to that CT, allowing it to soak more....whereas the HBK-IIC, does not.

Personally, I find no matter how I twist, either the STs or the CT go up in smoke pretty quick, regardless. Thus, my idea is to make some of the ST directly above the arm count as "shoulder" instead of ST, letting the arms finally soak SOME of the incoming damage.

The two colored areas above the arm represent two levels of hitbox change, minor and relatively major, to accomplish this.

Currently, there is really zero reason to put armor on the HBK-IICs arms. Even the Charlie, with arm weapons, because ALL shots hit your 3 Torso sections. Out of 75 or so matches in my HBK-IICs I have lost arms TWICE (unless it had an entire ST attached to it). Mind you, the normal Hunchback doesn't arm shield, either. Yet funnily enough I do lose arms on it at about 3-4 times the regularity. The other difference is the HBK gets substantive structure buffs.

I'm fine with the IIC being unquirked (at least at the moment, given more time and data, perhaps they will need minor quirks), so I'd rather see a non quirked solution, like the one proposed in the picture.

Thoughts?

At least 1 mech out of every pack it would seem. Coughcough Black Knight Coughcough.

On another topic, can't wait to see you again on the Battlefield. Being the 1st focused target on your 2nd attempt at pushing was an honor. Breaking your balls on your 1st attempt was evil grin inducing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tractor Joe, on 18 December 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

At least 1 mech out of every pack it would seem. Coughcough Black Knight Coughcough.

On another topic, can't wait to see you again on the Battlefield. Being the 1st focused target on your 2nd attempt at pushing was an honor. Breaking your balls on your 1st attempt was evil grin inducing.

Endo Steel cup in my jock, nothing broken, just a little scorched.

[LordNothing]

ive come to the conclusion that you cant brawl with the iic, i dont think thats ever gonna change. now the jenner iic is a brutal brawler.

[Bishop Steiner]

LordNothing, on 18 December 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

ive come to the conclusion that you cant brawl with the iic, i dont think thats ever gonna change. now the jenner iic is a brutal brawler.

Yes. For that one shot it gets before it pops.

[Deathlike]

WarHippy, on 18 December 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Well that is disheartening. I'm not sure what Russ is seeing to think that giving it a bigger CT to hit from the side is a good idea, but what the hell. Increasing the arm hit box into the shoulders makes a lot more sense for the mech.

Awesome said:

Hello

[Johny Rocket]

LordNothing, on 18 December 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

ive come to the conclusion that you cant brawl with the iic, i dont think thats ever gonna change. now the jenner iic is a brutal brawler.

Walking torso with 2 more srms. If I owned one I would stuff it full of cssrm2 and a cooldown module if available and hide on top of rocks.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Just ask Mr. Awesome how useful a large, easily hit CT is.

[Bishop Steiner]

*****Hitbox Update:

how much and how effective, only time will tell, but definitely better than more CT!

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

*****Hitbox Update:

how much and how effective, only time will tell, but definitely better than more CT!

Thank Mecha-Cthulu

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 22 December 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

Thank Mecha-Cthulu

Cthulu-mas has come early this year... WHM geometry fix and HBKIIC hitbox fix..... and new years resolution to look into the Pitch Issue. Yeah!

[Grimm Peaper]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

https://twitter.com/...658662454865921


Essentially, they want to give it more CT, making it's "potbelly" able to be hit from the sides. This is also, not a coincidence how they "fixed" the Catapult, Dragon. The difference? The Dragon and Catapult both also have pretty substantial structure buffs to that CT, allowing it to soak more....whereas the HBK-IIC, does not.

Personally, I find no matter how I twist, either the STs or the CT go up in smoke pretty quick, regardless. Thus, my idea is to make some of the ST directly above the arm count as "shoulder" instead of ST, letting the arms finally soak SOME of the incoming damage.

The two colored areas above the arm represent two levels of hitbox change, minor and relatively major, to accomplish this.

Currently, there is really zero reason to put armor on the HBK-IICs arms. Even the Charlie, with arm weapons, because ALL shots hit your 3 Torso sections. Out of 75 or so matches in my HBK-IICs I have lost arms TWICE (unless it had an entire ST attached to it). Mind you, the normal Hunchback doesn't arm shield, either. Yet funnily enough I do lose arms on it at about 3-4 times the regularity. The other difference is the HBK gets substantive structure buffs.

I'm fine with the IIC being unquirked (at least at the moment, given more time and data, perhaps they will need minor quirks), so I'd rather see a non quirked solution, like the one proposed in the picture.

Thoughts?

*****Hitbox Update:

how much and how effective, only time will tell, but definitely better than more CT!

No thank you. Please leave it as is.

[Mcgral18]

Grimm Peaper, on 22 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

No thank you. Please leave it as is.

[Chados]

Christof Romulus, on 18 December 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

I thought that Clam Two Sea mechs were going to be fairly overpowered.

Thankfully, as this is the first wave of the Too See, PGI decided to take the absolute worst mechs of the Inner Sphere and give them to Clam to see how it went.

Turns out bad hitboxes matter quite a bit.

PGI also dropped a balance change right before the release of the Tootsie mechs which I think helped out a lot, to keep those uncontrollable alphas down.

Currently, I don't think the IIC mechs need structure upgrades right now. They bring so much firepower to the table - which is a point that simply can't be understated - on chassis that are LIKELY bringing the largest engine possible.

Clam Jenner does 72 point alphas moving at 156kph, for example. Keeping this all in perspective - the AS7-S bringing an AC 20 and 4 SRM 6's has a 71.5 point alpha and moves at 61 kph. That's 35 tons of Clan mech vs 100 tons of Inner Sphere mech. .5 more damage at nearly 100kph faster.

I can understand that Clammers at this point are used to being able to roll hits for days off their timbertorsos, but when you're packing this much firepower, you can't also have all the durability.

Buckle up for some serious Clanner hate, Romulus.

I agree that they need to have some drawbacks to compensate for their ridonkulous firepower. Which right now, they do. But saying so sure makes people mad.

[Bishop Steiner]

Grimm Peaper, on 22 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

No thank you. Please leave it as is.

Gosh, things just not going your way...

Mcgral18, on 22 December 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

eh just a hater hating...you saw his Topic... I think the stark contrast between a bad rant and a thought out factual post speak enough for themselves. Apparently so does PGI.

I'm going to go out on a limb their opinion is a little more important.

Chados, on 22 December 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

Buckle up for some serious Clanner hate, Romulus.

I agree that they need to have some drawbacks to compensate for their ridonkulous firepower. Which right now, they do. But saying so sure makes people mad.

Drawbacks are fine, as long as they are in line with any advantages. Right now, speaking as a Spheroid, I can see they are not.