16 replies to this topic

[carnivorouswinds]

So, Community Warfare still has a particular match mode that makes no sense.

You may recognize this: Kill the objective and kill more 'mechs than the enemy.

What actually happens: Team with this task can just shoot the objective from 1000m+ away, kill two 'mechs, then hide in the spawn with dropship protection maintaining the lead.

Why is this allowed to exist? It doesn't meet the basic standards of logic for competitive objective-based multiplayer. It wastes the players' time and ties up tonnage that could be used in other drops.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Wow. I have never seen, nor have I even heard of, such a thing happening. Has this happened to you?

[S 0 L E N Y A]

TheRAbbi, on 21 December 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Wow. I have never seen, nor have I even heard of, such a thing happening. Has this happened to you?

Really? I thought that was a pretty common tactic.
I won and lost more than a couple times in last event that way.

[Virlutris]

carnivorouswinds, on 21 December 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

So, Community Warfare still has a particular match mode that makes no sense.

You may recognize this: Kill the objective and kill more 'mechs than the enemy.

What actually happens: Team with this task can just shoot the objective from 1000m+ away, kill two 'mechs, then hide in the spawn with dropship protection maintaining the lead.

Why is this allowed to exist? It doesn't meet the basic standards of logic for competitive objective-based multiplayer. It wastes the players' time and ties up tonnage that could be used in other drops.

While this is a perfectly plausible exploit of the gamemode, I've never personally seen it play out that way.

I've seen teams pull back to a more defensible position after destroying the Omega field base, and establishing a multiple-mech kill lead. I haven't seen a "dropship huddle" after sniping Omega and a couple mechs.

How often do you see this in practice? Once is enough to be infuriating, granted, but it reads like you see this frequently.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Yeah, I'm with Virlutris above.

After gaining a significant lead in the kill count AND destroying Omega, falling back to a more defensible position is reasonable for the counterattacking team. It's their fight to lose, at that point, and there's no point in making it any easier for their enemy reinforcements than it has to be.

But I've never seen or heard of a team falling back to the dropship landing zone after taking only two enemy mechs out, mostly because I've never heard of a team managing to take out Omega without a single casualty and without killing more than two of the defenders' mechs. Doesn't seem likely, except in the weird sort of PUGland that occasionally happens now with 12 new solo players on either side. And even THAT is kinda rare, as the teams are smelling blood in the water and going bull shark on the swarms of newbies.

Really, I mean, IF YOU HAVE SEEN WHAT IS DESCRIBED ABOVE, that's the sort of thing the devs may want to have a look at. That simply SHOULD NOT be happening.

[DustySkunk]

Rule number one of any online multiplayer game:

1) If there exists a means to abuse/exploit/circumvent a system or game mechanic, it WILL be abused, exploited and circumvented by a portion of the player population.

In this case: although it can feel like an abuse, I think it's actually more of a design choice (whether its a good one or not remains to be seen). On most of the CW maps, you need to get reasonably close to have an angle of attack necessary to snipe Omega and well within the defenders "territory."

Even if they are 1000 meters away, that isn't very large compared to the scale of the map itself. In all likelihood you should probably be engaging them before they are able to snipe away, or at the very least react to the sniping before they manage to kill Omega. At that distance you can close into standard weapon ranges fairly quickly. If you aren't able to do that, it sounds like most of the team is probably deployed far from where they can be effective.

It provides incentive to not allow the objective to be destroyed and makes the job of defense much more proactive than just fortifying a choke-point or setting up a firing line.

It would be cool to hear from the devs about this at some point though

Edited by DustySkunk, 21 December 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[Alec Braca]

I have never seen this happen in the IS nor the Clans. I mean MAYBE a well coordinated 12 man team with Clan weapons ranges would be able to pull this off but why would they do that? Any team that does this intentionally is probably a real PoS. Some teams / organizations will win AT ALL COST no matter how dirty the fighting is. I have seen some spawn camping still, not as much as before, not to be confused with being pushed back to your drop zone and fighting near it. This usually happens during events, especially Tuk2, where we had 5 min matches of just Clan mechs blowing by us and taking objectives over and over. Haven't fought enough IS to bring judgment.

[Wildstreak]

Only time I saw something like this, it was more than 2 Mechs dead per side. We were actually winning until the enemy got up on kills near the end and killed Omega then they pulled out of base and someone on our team gave bad orders.

Not all maps can they get back to the dropships unless they Eject like Vitric Forge, the Attacker drop areas can only be reached by those with JJs.

[Bud Crue]

I've been a victim of this several times most notably during the last Tukkayid event. Yet I must also confess to employing this tactic for what may have been the sweetest act of revenge I have ever experienced in this game. So while it may be ignoble of me to admit to it but consider the following before you judge too harshly:

Some members of a a fairly well known team had managed to do this too us twice in one evening on Emerald Tiaga. Both matches ended in our group of mixed FRR regulars and a few pugs getting stomped when we had to go out and face the enemy at or near their drop zones. Later that evening, we managed to pull off the exact same tactic on Grim Portico against the same unit, and frankly it felt great to stick it to them they way they stuck it to us. That they did it to us twice, but still let us get away with using their own tactic against them made it all the sweeter.

So on the one hand I do consider this tactic to be to nadir of gameplay, using it to defeat a team that does it to you feels pretty justified. That may make me a hypocrite, but you live by the sword, you die by the sword and all that.

[Elizander]

Not in CW often but never saw it happen. Always at least 20-30 dead mechs on each side. :3

Edited by Elizander, 21 December 2015 - 06:46 PM.

[Koniving]

Typically, the dropships are FAR too weak to provide adequate defense for attacking teams. Defending teams (like attacking teams) can spam dropships but the defender dropships are even weaker with even less range.

Usually the complaint is often getting spawn ravaged and slaughtered as soon as they get out of the dropships.

[Tarl Cabot]

I thought this one was funny. Via PM was informed it was not a pug but a 12-man unit.

http://mwomercs.com/...-emerald-taiga/

Half Ear, on 06 December 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

Sorry to scratch up some of your mechs....

Their tactic.. get up on mountain to snipe down omega on counter attack (others take down Gen 2 this way), get 2 kills on the suckers that exit the gate then run back to their drop ship area for 20 minutes of the game.

I can say the issue is not that you ran for your mommy but that you did not have to enter the complex to take out omega/gen 2.

Considering that PGI would shields around the gens and omega to force the attackers hit it from a specific POV while IN the complex, it really brings to the point of what were they ....

nm.

PS it did not help that the Clan team played like pugs though, after the fact... or teams from both side would pick on omega or Gen 2 from that spot...

It is possible that they were Steiners posing as Davions....

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 21 December 2015 - 07:20 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Tarl Cabot, on 21 December 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

I thought this one was funny. Via PM was informed it was not a pug but a 12-man unit.

http://mwomercs.com/...-emerald-taiga/

This is possible only on Emerald Taiga counterattack, and it requires those trying it to at least not lose the initial engagement. As far as I know, defensive positions at the attacker spawn are not viable because the area is open and the spawn locations aren't close enough to each other to effectively use the dropships or reinforce, however attackers can set up a firing line at either gate if they have a significant kill lead.
The defender spawn area is viable for defense and given proper positioning is almost impossible to beat conventionally. The only tactic that will definitely beat it is suicide UAV + LRM spam. In my opinion this needs to be addressed.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 22 December 2015 - 02:51 AM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

My takeaway so far:

Emerald Taiga map CAN be exploited in the manner described, and should probably be given another pass by the developer.

Sound right?

[Satan n stuff]

TheRAbbi, on 22 December 2015 - 03:06 AM, said:

My takeaway so far:

Emerald Taiga map CAN be exploited in the manner described, and should probably be given another pass by the developer.

Sound right?

Not exactly as described, but basically yes.

[Anachronda]

carnivorouswinds, on 21 December 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

So, Community Warfare still has a particular match mode that makes no sense.

You may recognize this: Kill the objective and kill more 'mechs than the enemy.

What actually happens: Team with this task can just shoot the objective from 1000m+ away, kill two 'mechs, then hide in the spawn with dropship protection maintaining the lead.

Why is this allowed to exist? It doesn't meet the basic standards of logic for competitive objective-based multiplayer. It wastes the players' time and ties up tonnage that could be used in other drops.

Boogie138, on 21 December 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Really? I thought that was a pretty common tactic.
I won and lost more than a couple times in last event that way.

Not really, no. First of all there are only a few maps you can snipe Omega on. PGI has actually reduced some of that as well as made it harder to hit the generators. Being up by two kills is not a smart place to be using this kind of tactic. If you can even get ONLY two kills and then get away the other team is doing it wrong anyhow.

I have seen the dropship tactic work and I have seen it not work. You have to be up a bit more than that on kills for it to work and it only works that well on certain maps. However, if you learn how to deal with dropships they are not as effective against you. In any case, a good team can punish you for daring to use that tactic - I have been on both ends of that. Consider the fact that people camp spawn - this is what you are inviting when you sit on your own spawn. Before dropships fought back it was way more prevalent, but it still happens at times.

Counterattack can be tricky for both sides. A good tactic for attackers is to get a lead on kills then get back to their side of the gate and make the other team come at them. Defense is already in that position and their terrain is easier to defend usually than the attackers' side. In any case the dropship tactic is an extension of that.

OP should learn all the game modes and how to win. Each one generally requires different tactics and strategies, although much as with regular drops you can usually fall back on just killing the whole team to win. People seem to like skirmishing. CW is definitely competitive. It just has a high learning curve. The good news is some of the best players are there and will be more than willing to help you.

[AlmightyAeng]

This is only possible in one mode of CW: Hold Territory. In this mode, you can hit Omega from far out, as it's the only immobile objective, kill a few mechs, and retreat, forcing the defending team to come to you and kill you.

On Hold territory, you have to actively seek to destroy the other team. If you turtle in your base and they kill a few of you and destroy Omega with impunity, you've already lost. Don't let them get there.

It's goes both ways, though...if you're defending and you take out several attackers and then turtle up by your dropships, you force them to come to you.

Omega is basically useless in Hold Territory. You HAVE to kill more enemy mechs. It's skirmish with a small distraction called Omega.

Play it like Skirmish.