45 replies to this topic

[William Slayer]

Leone, on 21 December 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

I, Personally, would love it if they simply included Aerospace rules for the dropships. ... Well, not the full armoury mind you, the weapons spreads on those things would be properly terrifying, but you know, the whole destructible dropship thing.

~Leone.

As we currently only use Leopard class dropships, they would very likely get owned if they actually stuck around and landed. Our current maps provide lots of cover for mechs to approach those static hard points.

To the point of the original poster, since most organized teams form up as 12 mans to go into combat anyway, having the dropship drop all of the unit at the same time makes perfect sense, and is much more believable since the drop ships went back to orbit for "a second wave."

[Nerdboard]

As has been pointed out by several people already - some more and some less condescending - spawn camping is not a problem in the game atm. It is incredibly rare (wont say impossible) that a somewhat even match gets decided by spawn camping. In most cases when the enemy is close to your spawn your team had no chance whatsoever of winning and the winning side just does not want to wait for you to walk all the way. Which imo is fair.

So I dont think such a mechanic is necessary. I wouldnt mind it being implemented but only for 12man premades. I do not want someone else who I dont know decide when I drop.

[Lily from animove]

Well it opens upt the possibility to "exploit"

imagine a defending team is leading but has a light out there. But the team is only one kill in a advance. the light may now just run around and hiding to delay the dropping of the rest make a cheap win for his team.

[Ghogiel]

Maybe we need is hostile turret drops or like continuous arty into the spawn zone to stop people camping their own spawn so much.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

With the current dropships and spawn locations, if you are being spawncamped your team is horrendously outclassed

Not always. I had a match where I DCd in the lobby. Game crashed. I reboot and rejoin only to find my 1st mech dead (this is in the first 5 mins of Hellbore Springs). Step off spawn and its 4 cheetahs camping me. I do some damage but they easily wolfpack me. I check the map and my team is down inside the gates trading. I let them know our drop is being camped, but they are too far away to do anything. Then the cheetahs spawncamp my 3rd and 4th mech. I think I killed 2 of them, but by that point my CW experience had been ruined.

That was my CW night. I had an hour to play, waited 20min to get a match, then got spawnr*ped the next 10. Fun? Sure, I can understand vulturing a DC, but spawncamping the rest of his mechs is lame. Let the guy play instead of having to win at any cost.

Quote

the enemy are simply ending the match quicker, the result is not being changed

How about letting the other team play some? You're still going to win easily, and unless you bill $400 an hour, that extra 10 mins is not going to inconvenience you. Your time is not so important that it trumps running off new blood.

Pugs aren't ditching CW because they are getting stomped, pugs are ditching because they don't get to play the game.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 22 December 2015 - 04:39 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Fen Tetsudo, on 22 December 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:

Not always. I had a match where I DCd in the lobby. Game crashed. I reboot and rejoin only to find my 1st mech dead (this is in the first 5 mins of Hellbore Springs). Step off spawn and its 4 cheetahs camping me. I do some damage but they easily wolfpack me. I check the map and my team is down inside the gates trading. I let them know our drop is being camped, but they are too far away to do anything. Then the cheetahs spawncamp my 3rd and 4th mech. I think I killed 2 of them, but by that point my CW experience had been ruined.

That was my CW night. I had an hour to play, waited 20min to get a match, then got spawnr*ped the next 10. Fun? Sure, I can understand vulturing a DC, but spawncamping the rest of his mechs is lame. Let the guy play instead of having to win at any cost.

How about letting the other team play some? You're still going to win easily, and unless you bill $400 an hour, that extra 10 mins is not going to inconvenience you. Your time is not so important that it trumps running off new blood.

Pugs aren't ditching CW because they are getting stomped, pugs are ditching because they don't get to play the game.

Tbh, when i play we have no desire to spawn camp, the dropships are annoying as hell, we would MUCH rather the enemy team came to fight us, but what happens quite often is they come once, get obliterated and then hide in their spawn, so rather than wait 25 minutes we go to them.

DCing at the start and getting camped by 4 enemy lights is pretty harsh, ill grant you - but that was total idiot play from the other team, and it should have made your team win - because for those first 5 minutes the enemy team was down 4 players while yours was down 1... very, very few teams would do that because its stupid, so i don't think its a common issue at all.

[Zibmo]

Grimwill, on 21 December 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

the idea of having different drop zones points though would be awesome on a conquest like map but if a team only had one conquest nod conquered they will still get spawncamped in that one area. I have been saying for months now that they need to take quick play which is arguably the more fun mode and put it into CW. But i also think that mechs should be able to destroy dropship weapons, for the realism

You misunderstand. A capped LZ only means the other team can't respawn there. In a neutral spawn, anyone can spawn there. So, if LZ C is capped (and held, because the cap decays) by team A, only team A can drop there. If LZ B is not held by either team, either team can drop there.

Combine this with wave drops and you have a much more dynamic battlefield.

[SkippyT72]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 December 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

Tbh, when i play we have no desire to spawn camp, the dropships are annoying as hell, we would MUCH rather the enemy team came to fight us, but what happens quite often is they come once, get obliterated and then hide in their spawn, so rather than wait 25 minutes we go to them.

DCing at the start and getting camped by 4 enemy lights is pretty harsh, ill grant you - but that was total idiot play from the other team, and it should have made your team win - because for those first 5 minutes the enemy team was down 4 players while yours was down 1... very, very few teams would do that because its stupid, so i don't think its a common issue at all.

This is right on point, the defending team was playing the match as a 8 on 12 and your team did not push and make them play, that game was already lost if you were there getting killed by 4 lights or not.

[ice trey]

Why not just have it really simple to select which dropship you're coming in on. Like, while dropping, there's a cue for Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie Dropships, Maximum of four slots each. Ideally, maybe with a "Current map overlay" that shows where friendlies and targeted enemies are.

This way, if the attackers are all clustered around the drop point of Dropship Alpha, you can simply click "Charlie" so that you don't drop in the middle of the enemy's teeth. Alternately, if a battle is raging around Alpha, you could pick Alpha in order to have the dropships provide supporting fire.

[Deathlike]

Here's the thing about spawn camping... in CW Phase 2, the meaning of spawncamping has changed into two distinct definitions.

1) If the skill/teamwork is lopsided, you are going to be farmed regardless. When you are the receiving end of the beatdown... you need to get better and/or play with more coordinated teams (AND that doesn't require you to join them - you just need to follow directions on the faction's teamspeak).

At this point, I don't feel bad for you that much, because spawns are not in the way of incoming mechs/traffic to the objectives...

What I see a lot more of since the changes are what I'm about to describe...


2) There are some teams... usually the more organized, but perhaps not as good... they tend to use the dropships as their extra firepower in lieu of skill.

So, take a look at a simple example.

Dropping on Boreal... it is actually possible for the defending team in the counter attack (the guys that have to "defend" the MFB) to make it "tough" for the attacking team (the ones outside the gates) by allowing the attacking team to get the MFB AND climb into the "shooting gallery" behind the mountain. Once someone on the defending team dies, dropships afford the defending team extra firepower for free.

Mind you, the reverse can also happen. Let's say the attacking group gets the MFB AND the lead. It is the option of the attacking force to withdraw from the base and camp on their dropship shielded side of the field (and primarily run long range).

While you could argue this is somewhat of a chess match, you're probably just running towards the straight "blitzkrieg move".


While these are considered "viable tactics" (which I'm not entirely bothered by), understand that dropships (for this mode) were never really meant to supplement a force. They are SUPPOSED to be deterrents for spawn camping. Unlike case #1, these tactics have been used in such a way to "play with a lead"... which in many cases makes events a lot harder to get the required score.


TL;DR
The new form of spawncamping is weaksauce, but it's there. It still won't stop a roflstomp.

The old saying is still true:

Dropships MVP.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 December 2015 - 02:24 AM.

[Texas Merc]

spawn camping is dead.

HAIL SANTA

[Deathlike]

As a supplementary post...

I think I get what you're saying OP, but it's easily abuseable, but even more currently problematic.

The idea to "force sync" an wave is only done on an attacking group (outside of the gates), but that's usually manageable (outside of PUGs ignoring where to regroup and attempt to reinforce a failing position).

The problem is twofold...

1) If you're leading after a wave.. particularly defensively (you are doing counterattack, and are supposed to defend the MFB), getting the lead and "locking into place" indefinitely would be abused. I'm sure you can start the timers for the next respawn, but the interface doesn't allow you to do much in the respawning phase.

2) When you actually get "locked in" to a group for a drop, the "1st person" on the list automatically gets Company Commander. While this is usually a non-issue once you get into game/match, but sometimes you want more control over mech placement over groups. Someone getting Company Commander during a match (usually by accident, and some people can troll for that position/command to screw others over).

Basically, you'd have to answer a simple question - who should be getting control over the entire group?

That becomes impossible if the entire team is groupless, but there are other factors at work as well (like if both teams in a group are event - who gets control?)

Anyways, your solution doesn't really fix an existing problem.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 December 2015 - 11:19 PM.

[gloowa]

PFC Carsten, on 21 December 2015 - 01:48 AM, said:

(btw - if the dropships are so OP, why don't the factions use THOSE to fight - each one can easily kill hundreds of mechs, IOW totally breaks immersion).

No it doesn't. You just didn't factor in the cost.

The Lopard dropships costs 227 750 400 CBills (yes 227 million). For the same price you can get 25 AS7-Ds. 25 AS7-Ds will down the Leopard in no time - it has only 13 tons of Side armor with 14 tons Front and pitiful 10 tons in the rear. (or to translate it to armor points: 224 front, 208 sides, 160 rear (tabletop) which translates to 448 front, 416 sides and 320 rear (mwo)). So, as you can see, while having a large array of weapons, it's quite vulnerable to concentrated enemy fire - the thickest armor is weaker then combined CT armor of 4 Atlases, while those Atlases are costing 16% of the Leopard.

Now add the costs of fuel and maintnance for a 1700 ton machine, and you got yourself a cbill-sucking black hole.

Was your immersion sufficiently restored?

[edit]
Data for this post was pulled from Combat Operations. The faction list can be found here:
http://pages.cs.wisc...st-20070212.txt

Edited by gloowa, 23 December 2015 - 12:54 AM.

[SkippyT72]

Teams that refuse to leave spawn and use the MVP or should I say abuse it as there is no real cost to them and really no economy in CW yet anyway make that a invalid argument, although I can see just where you are going and it would be 100% correct 'if" we had a true working economy. But when you get drops where the team has 3 kills and "Dan" has 12, if that's not a reason to set up some kind of timer for unit's to automatically self destruct and get auto reported for non participation someone please give a good reason for it to be allowed when we all supposedly are here to "play" not waste other people's time by not "playing".

[gloowa]

SkippyT72, on 23 December 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Teams that refuse to leave spawn and use the MVP or should I say abuse it as there is no real cost to them and really no economy in CW yet anyway make that a invalid argument, although I can see just where you are going and it would be 100% correct 'if" we had a true working economy. But when you get drops where the team has 3 kills and "Dan" has 12, if that's not a reason to set up some kind of timer for unit's to automatically self destruct and get auto reported for non participation someone please give a good reason for it to be allowed when we all supposedly are here to "play" not waste other people's time by not "playing".

I'm not gonna argue that. Buffing the dropships was a bad move first time, and it was a bod move the second time now. It has done absolutely nothing to stop spawn killing in stomps but has completely upset counter-attack mode when teams are evenly matched:

Receipe for dumb Counter Attack game. Makes 24 dumb Counter Attack game portions.

Ingredients
A) two evenly matched teams

Preparation
1) get a kill lead.
2) run to spawn-fortress (or is it citadel after latest buffs?)
3) laugh as the other team tries to win while being squashed by the finger of angry god that the dropships jesus is, in the spawn-area-entry-chokepoint.
4) season with MPLs while stirring with ballistics
5) apply ERLLs as needed

Serve hot. Be aware - 12 portions are quite easy on the tongue, while the other 12 are super-salty.

[Sjorpha]

Spawn camping the enemy isn't a problem anymore, since it only happens in total roflstomps whe the match is effectively won already.

Camping your own spawn to compound a lead in counter attack is a kinda lame effect of the dropships though, that should be adressed.

What if the dropships only fire their weapons when you are not in the lead?

[gloowa]

Sjorpha, on 24 December 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

Spawn camping the enemy isn't a problem anymore, since it only happens in total roflstomps whe the match is effectively won already.

Camping your own spawn to compound a lead in counter attack is a kinda lame effect of the dropships though, that should be adressed.

What if the dropships only fire their weapons when you are not in the lead?

What if the dropships only use the lasers only on targets in the actual dropzone? I lost count how many times i died by passing dropship lazor swipe while trying to kill ogen or omega (looking at you Vitric Forge, and you Hellbore Springs)

What if dropships stop focusing CT only, which leads to headshots on certain chassi? (stormcrow, ebon jag, jenner (more rare), sometimes cataphract, rarely raven)?

It was established by now that no matter what firepower the dropships will have, they won't be able to prevent people being killed as soon as they drop. Which in itself is NOT an issue, now that the dropzones are in a safe space (jesus, that must be first time ever i said 'safe space' without a mocking tone) away from battle. So how about we just make dropship lasers regular large lasers that randomly select component to hit and prevent them from firing at targets outside of the actual dropzone? All that the overbuffed dropships does is prolong the match by having the winning force having to waddle for 5 more minutes across entire map. While i understand why they were made so strong in the first place (at that time defending force was spawning on the path the attackers HAD to take) i think PGI went overboard with both moving the dropzones AND buffing dropship range, fire rate, CT only targeting, 100% accuracy... Can i haz those lasor turretz on my mech plz?

Edited by gloowa, 24 December 2015 - 03:30 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

I think they should make the spawn areas for both sides count as a variation of out of bounds - make the timer like 2 minutes instead of 10 seconds, but you explode if you stay in there longer. Then give the dropships like 20 AC20s if you want, so going into the dropzone really is instant death. There, no spawn camping either offensively or defensively.

[Anachronda]

Darwins Dog, on 21 December 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

I don't think that's how it works. If you don't select a mech, then you get the next one in line. There's to way to delay the drop.

To the point of the thread: I voted no. Waiting until everyone on the team is dead will give the enemy more time to set up a firing line on one flank. They will instantly drop the closest mech and work their way up the line before the team getting camped can even get all of their mechs into range.

The reality is that you only get camped if you are already losing badly. It sucks to be on the receiving end of it, but getting camped is not the reason why a team lost. With the recently buffed drop ships, it's really hard to maintain it.

MaxFool, on 21 December 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Nope, you are wrong. If you miss the first countdown (can be anything from 1 to 30 secs), you miss the first drop ship and drop in next. You get the next mech in line automatically only if you don't select mech in time for that second drop ship. That's also why disconnectors take longer to drop, they always miss the first drop ship and take that extra 30 secs to drop.

Uh, no. Darwin is definitely correct. The way I know is when I have had that spinning bug where the dropship screen doesn't load (thankfully not lately), or when I don't answer in time, the next mech drops. It drops in exactly the same amount of time every time. There is no way to delay this further. I have been in the dropzone while others dropped and seen the same thing. If you think it is different, video it and show us your timer resetting and the mech not dropping.

[H I A S]

Nope, Max is right.