447 replies to this topic

[Inkarnus]

Darth Hotz, on 08 January 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

Yesterday I had a one on one situation with a well known player. He was in a SPL Cheetah and I sat in my 2LPL 6MG Arrow. He danced around me and wanted the kill so bad that he did not care that I started opening his centertorso. Then he overheated and shut down right in front of me. The 6MGs did their thing and he died.

Then he started complaining about "fragging" PGI and the "fragged" overquirked Blackjacks.

This is exactly what I mean. Some clan players are just so spoiled by their golden age of overpower that they have forgotten what life is without easymode and blame their mistakes on IS quirks.

Pure psychological gold *grabs popcorn*

What do you want to tell us ? that blackjacks are fine? that cheetahs are op? that you are best player EU west ?
that none of you donergirls kling to ezmode mechs? that you rarely drop outside of 12s for a reason?
what is it?

/just fyi shooting the ct on cheetah is the blatant *intelligentest* move you ever can make lol. I think you should get back to bootcamp.

another point is that backstabbing was a valid tactic before the quirkening now its gone basically invalidating a whole
role for one side another freebee for IS side only.

What you fail to grasp is that a firestarter would have had the same problems. With coolant a Cheetah can puke out around
150 Points damage a firestarter would have a bit more then that.
So lets assume these 150 Points before 100% overheat on the hottest map while running.
Keep in mind the Cheetah has torso twist of 160 the Bj arrow has +30 yaw speed (+65 engine rating you would normally need for that) thats around 135 for the arrow with max engine. So you are forced to attack the front. lets say you focus on the front left and center thats 40 and 52 Armor to chew.
Leaving him with 58 points to kill your internals in the old scenario. Which was a kill even when you spread it a bit to the still armored other part.

In the new scenario these 58 points vaporise to the additional structure. Since even a half decent player can spread
enough the damage on CT and both ST. A great player can even spread it so much that you basically need to strip him bare
on every ST CT side before you even can try to killshot him.

Everplayer would agree on that blackjack are the worst IS mech ever to deserv:
-Structure quirks just a little bit shy of the atlas ones
-energy range
-heat efficent quirks

since they have undoubtly the shittyst highmounts of all mediums the shittest smallest hitboxes of them all
and sadly 1 variant is missing the JJs. Another point is that additional they are that ****** that atleast 3 variants can
attain a 135 yaw rate via quirks or engine. They are so ****** that atleast most accel decel quirks on them make
scouts blush with 30% accel deccel on the version that goes 116kph even having 60% accel.

Who the **** let they toy around with the values anyway since that is a big fopa already.
The HBK-4SP gets the same **** for what ever reasons (sean lang????? yeah he loves his 4sp).
Its not even remotly adressable why the hell HBK-4SP gets it and the rest dont its just omfg and most
of the mechs just get medicore structure quirks in the medium line.

Edited by Inkarnus, 09 January 2016 - 07:07 AM.

[Der Hesse]

That´s indeed new to me. When i play clan mechs it´s srm or laser.
Nice to learn something new. ^^

[El Bandito]

Balance is fine right now. My WLR against Clans and IS are both around 50%. Of course the nerfed side will cry about it.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 January 2016 - 06:47 AM.

[Inkarnus]

El Bandito, on 09 January 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

Balance is fine right now. My WLR against Clans and IS are both around 50%. Of course the nerfed side will cry about it.

you do realise that basic psychology dictates that if one side percieves balance is fine they are at an advantage right ? _D
Not that most people not even have a grasp what balance means. Not even knowing that UACs shoot multiple bullets and some such is just baffeling to even try to talk about concept they know nothing about =D.

Edited by Inkarnus, 09 January 2016 - 07:16 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Inkarnus, on 08 January 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

I find it always  hilarious if people say its the Mercs or its X other then the mechs. In this forum part it should ALL be related to mechs and the HIGHEST player skill as measure for balance. But what i know from the IS there are much less good players around and much less guys that have not there head up there arse about clans(aka payback of a long long forgotten time where clan were released in wave 1 and balance was really effed up).

All weapon quirks need to be removed period.
They just totally **** up balance and just lead to FOTOM mechs that are stronger by definition even in IS intern balance.
Some structure quirks need a total rework like the blackjacks and atlas.
Clan need structure quirks too or better heatmanagement to deal with the higher structure of IS mechs.

I mean look at the balance atm in a Tboldt 5ss atm a  med pulse laser is basically superior in nearly every way to a clan c med pulse laser
Fully kittet out Tboldt has:
1,73 Damage/Heat 308m range 616m Maxrange 0,32 less cooldown and burntime of 0,6.
vs Clan full moduled
1,33 Damage/Heat 363m range 617m Maxrange  2,67 cooldown and burntime of 0,8

add to this equation that DHS with 1.5 heatcap(1,4 before) are far superior and have more heat tresh then clan 1,1 heatcap (old value 1,4). which basically translate you dont have the heatcap to
even remotly compete with IS mechs especially if they are overquirked.
For example i have no problem fitting 21 DHS into my tboldt thats additional 31,5 Heatcap
with 2x 37,5
vs
on clan i can put into a 65t ebon 26 DHS at additional 28,6 Heatcap (old 36,4)
with 2x 34,32 Heatcap (old 43,68)
(basically unrealistic values since most builds have far less then 26dhs on clan side)

So now you have the Problem on Clan side of the C Medpulse laser:
Its less heat efficent, less efficent overall (higher burntime=less time on target component),higher cooldown and too hot for what it does in comparison to a Tboldt.

So yeah in that comparison alone the Tboldt has all the aces in its hand
STD engine, more structure, more heat efficent, more efficent(lowerburntime), with a faster cooldown even to the degree nearly matching the C Mpl in Damage/S with a higher heatcap and heatefficency.

IS is balanced obviously not, to all the armchair admirals.

TL DR
Clans Heat to Damage ratio is terrible and IS heat to damage ratio with quirks of any kind is  excelent and without still good and superior.
So all weapons quirks like refirerate, range, burntime and heat efficency need to go especially since they create more problems then they solve. Making to balance all the IS Chassis a huge
undertaking and creating an unnecessary micro cosmos on IS side that just will grow to be
a jungle of unbalance even more with time. Additional it will eat up resources needed badly in other parts of development.
Structure quirks thou are simplistic and a good way to balance BAD chassis like a Catapult.
But need to be applyed carefully and not to dominant meta chassis.

The heat cap difference ends up being 6.6% different with two mechs both having 20 DHS, on top of that the Clan DHS will dissipate .1 heat per second faster (which is a small change but helps offset the heat cap difference). The heat cap difference is hardly insurmountable, I have been playing Clan mechs and they still feel very strong to me. Another thing to keep in mind, most of the time Clan laser vomit build will be able to fit 24-26 DHS, where as typical IS vomit builds fit 18-20, which helps. Lighter weapons and 2-slot DHS help alot.

I don't worry about 5SS's, I'm usually able to get alphas on them from beyond their optimum range so they are nice and soft when they get closer. You just have to be aware and not engage in close quarter brawling with mechs that are designed for it. See also: 9 cSPL Stormcrow

[Darth Hotz]

Inkarnus, on 09 January 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

Pure psychological gold *grabs popcorn*

What do you want to tell us ? that blackjacks are fine? that cheetahs are op? that you are best player EU west ?
that none of you donergirls kling to ezmode mechs? that you rarely drop outside of 12s for a reason?
what is it?

/just fyi shooting the ct on cheetah is the blatant *intelligentest* move you ever can make lol. I think you should get back to bootcamp.

another point is that backstabbing was a valid tactic before the quirkening now its gone basically invalidating a whole
role for one side another freebee for IS side only.

What you fail to grasp is that a firestarter would have had the same problems. With coolant a Cheetah can puke out around
150 Points damage a firestarter would have a bit more then that.
So lets assume these 150 Points before 100% overheat on the hottest map while running.
Keep in mind the Cheetah has torso twist of 160 the Bj arrow has +30 yaw speed (+65 engine rating you would normally need for that) thats around 135 for the arrow with max engine. So you are forced to attack the front. lets say you focus on the front left and center thats 40 and 52 Armor to chew.
Leaving him with 58 points to kill your internals in the old scenario. Which was a kill even when you spread it a bit to the still armored other part.

In the new scenario these 58 points vaporise to the additional structure. Since even a half decent player can spread
enough the damage on CT and both ST. A great player can even spread it so much that you basically need to strip him bare
on every ST CT side before you even can try to killshot him.

Everplayer would agree on that blackjack are the worst IS mech ever to deserv:
-Structure quirks just a little bit shy of the atlas ones
-energy range
-heat efficent quirks

since they have undoubtly the shittyst highmounts of all mediums the shittest smallest hitboxes of them all
and sadly 1 variant is missing the JJs. Another point is that additional they are that ****** that atleast 3 variants can
attain a 135 yaw rate via quirks or engine. They are so ****** that atleast most accel decel quirks on them make
scouts blush with 30% accel deccel on the version that goes 116kph even having 60% accel.

Who the **** let they toy around with the values anyway since that is a big fopa already.
The HBK-4SP gets the same **** for what ever reasons (sean lang????? yeah he loves his 4sp).
Its not even remotly adressable why the hell HBK-4SP gets it and the rest dont its just omfg and most
of the mechs just get medicore structure quirks in the medium line.

Why do you get personal? Got beaten up by Donegals lately?

Also not sure why you want me to go back to boot camp. I did not forget about basic game concepts and shut down to die. Being IS I am used to face even or stronger mechs and do not expect to roll over a 45ton medium in my 30ton light.

Basic psychology also dictates that if one side looses the superiority, they were used to for so long, they perceive they are on the disadvantage now. So its understandable and human that you cant accept a balanced state of the game.

[Inkarnus]

Inkarnus, on 08 January 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

I find it always hilarious if people say its the Mercs or its X other then the mechs. In this forum part it should ALL be related to mechs and the HIGHEST player skill as measure for balance. But what i know from the IS there are much less good players around and much less guys that have not there head up there arse about clans(aka payback of a long long forgotten time where clan were released in wave 1 and balance was really effed up).

All weapon quirks need to be removed period.
They just totally **** up balance and just lead to FOTOM mechs that are stronger by definition even in IS intern balance.
Some structure quirks need a total rework like the blackjacks and atlas.
Clan need structure quirks too or better heatmanagement to deal with the higher structure of IS mechs.

I mean look at the balance atm in a Tboldt 5ss atm a med pulse laser is basically superior in nearly every way to a clan c med pulse laser
Fully kittet out Tboldt has:
1,73 Damage/Heat 308m range 616m Maxrange 0,32 less cooldown and burntime of 0,6.
vs Clan full moduled
1,33 Damage/Heat 363m range 617m Maxrange 2,67 cooldown and burntime of 0,8

add to this equation that DHS with 1.5 heatcap(1,4 before) are far superior and have more heat tresh then clan 1,1 heatcap (old value 1,4). which basically translate you dont have the heatcap to
even remotly compete with IS mechs especially if they are overquirked.
For example i have no problem fitting 21 DHS into my tboldt thats additional 31,5 Heatcap
with 2x 37,5
vs
on clan i can put into a 65t ebon 26 DHS at additional 28,6 Heatcap (old 36,4)
with 2x 34,32 Heatcap (old 43,68)
(basically unrealistic values since most builds have far less then 26dhs on clan side)

So now you have the Problem on Clan side of the C Medpulse laser:
Its less heat efficent, less efficent overall (higher burntime=less time on target component),higher cooldown and too hot for what it does in comparison to a Tboldt.

So yeah in that comparison alone the Tboldt has all the aces in its hand
STD engine, more structure, more heat efficent, more efficent(lowerburntime), with a faster cooldown even to the degree nearly matching the C Mpl in Damage/S with a higher heatcap and heatefficency.

IS is balanced obviously not, to all the armchair admirals.

TL DR
Clans Heat to Damage ratio is terrible and IS heat to damage ratio with quirks of any kind is excelent and without still good and superior.
So all weapons quirks like refirerate, range, burntime and heat efficency need to go especially since they create more problems then they solve. Making to balance all the IS Chassis a huge
undertaking and creating an unnecessary micro cosmos on IS side that just will grow to be
a jungle of unbalance even more with time. Additional it will eat up resources needed badly in other parts of development.
Structure quirks thou are simplistic and a good way to balance BAD chassis like a Catapult.
But need to be applyed carefully and not to dominant meta chassis.

Gas Guzzler, on 09 January 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

The heat cap difference ends up being 6.6% different with two mechs both having 20 DHS, on top of that the Clan DHS will dissipate .1 heat per second faster (which is a small change but helps offset the heat cap difference). The heat cap difference is hardly insurmountable, I have been playing Clan mechs and they still feel very strong to me. Another thing to keep in mind, most of the time Clan laser vomit build will be able to fit 24-26 DHS, where as typical IS vomit builds fit 18-20, which helps. Lighter weapons and 2-slot DHS help alot.

I don't worry about 5SS's, I'm usually able to get alphas on them from beyond their optimum range so they are nice and soft when they get closer. You just have to be aware and not engage in close quarter brawling with mechs that are designed for it. See also: 9 cSPL Stormcrow

I made a clear statement and for you to pick the weakest argument out of it to basically say duuh clams are fine is a bit lackluster especially since i made a head on comparison in a specific niche is kinda all saying.
So iam taking you are agreeing with me telling "Clans Heat to Damage ratio is terrible" since you dont even try to argument against it.
Since saying you *FEEL* something not backed up by any data or by any argument is a reasonable reply.
Then going out to say its fine because you can use tactic vs an imbalance doesnt make it a valid argument in the reasoning about balance since the guy on the opfor can use tactics to negate applyed tactics....

[Inkarnus]

Darth Hotz, on 09 January 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Basic psychology also dictates that if one side looses the superiority, they were used to for so long, they perceive they are on the disadvantage now. So its understandable and human that you cant accept a balanced state of the game.

Yeah good for you then sadly i was IS and switched for Tukk 2 to Clans forces and stuck with it till now but dont worry chances are very good we go home to mama IS and beat the **** out of you (not that it was the opposite on clanside) =D with balanced mechs since both sides will have exact same dropdeck voiding the whole argument here.
It will stop when the last clanner goes IS . Which apperently even SWOL realized. So it is basically a vote .

Edited by Inkarnus, 09 January 2016 - 08:39 AM.

[B0oN]

Kotev ?

Might wanna join our TS for a ride along and see for yourself what´s what ?

Yesterday´s (and this mornings )fights were mostly against 2323, WMDx and a few other units .
Good fights all around, thanks again guys for KEEPING CW ALIVE .

And trust me on one thing, mate : Units want to fight units . My unit (77th Grey Guards) wans to fight others . MS wants us to fight tough opponents, NOT BEGINNERS .

And for "bad clan players" :
Sorry if I piss you off with it, but as I told in another thread : I see people engaging me with SPL on 1k distance, while I paint their Battlemechs with ERL´s, and they just stand there, no torsotwst, no movement, no nothing .
And that is bad, aye ?
I would be helping if some of them had at least chat on, but tanks to PGI chat/teamchat/voip are turned off by default.

[The Basilisk]

Xenroth, on 03 January 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

Well I came back with the Steam release and mostly only play with my mates and the only big imbalance I see at the moment in CW is that half the team from the Clan'ers drop in the free2play Champion mechs ... and then whine that you lose? Rly?

What he said.
Teamwork is op.
And thats the prob with clans atm no great teams out there.
Just newbys playing trial mechs.

[Leggin Ho]

SO I guess, KCOM, NS, 228, MJ12, BMMU ect are not great teams....LMFAO

I do have to give a Props to the Unit [LOP] played them last night 2 or 3 times, no hiding and good hard fights, GG's again gents

Edited by Leggin Ho, 09 January 2016 - 12:34 PM.

[Kotev]

Rad Hanzo, on 09 January 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

Kotev ?

Might wanna join our TS for a ride along and see for yourself what´s what ?

Yesterday´s (and this mornings )fights were mostly against 2323, WMDx and a few other units .
Good fights all around, thanks again guys for KEEPING CW ALIVE .

And trust me on one thing, mate : Units want to fight units . My unit (77th Grey Guards) wans to fight others . MS wants us to fight tough opponents, NOT BEGINNERS .

And for "bad clan players" :
Sorry if I piss you off with it, but as I told in another thread : I see people engaging me with SPL on 1k distance, while I paint their Battlemechs with ERL´s, and they just stand there, no torsotwst, no movement, no nothing .
And that is bad, aye ?
I would be helping if some of them had at least chat on, but tanks to PGI chat/teamchat/voip are turned off by default.

Peace mate. I believe most od our discutions here are irrelevant but still is good to point out some things for game we love to play, for the developers to make it even better. For myself i love challenges and that is why i play clan atm. Still there are few cases in each gaming session thats get you frustrated by IS advantages like you see red torso, expect a kill, but alas enemy mech survives and you shut down, then someone will "steal" your kill or worse the dying mech will kill you I belive all clan players writing here have expirience that.

[Female Body Inspector]

If you want to properly balance MWO then the quirk system for the most part needs to go. Then you balance the Mechs, Weapons and Equipment.

I actually did all this for PGI and sent them a nice spreadhseet with my proposed changes and additions (I was so nice I added missing weapons and proposed removing ones that never existed aka. Clan Standard AC's).

https://drive.google...QcJVaUIWCsAVfKM

You'll notice that the Clans do have a range advantage, it's canon deal with it. I however made it so it's not like an X-5 vs any Targeting Computer 1-7 Clan mech were the unfortunate Clanner has to deal with an optimal range disadvantage of 100-200+ meters. I also proposed changes to make the IS capable of handling the short 60m range difference on ERLL and the longer albeit less effective range on the LB 2-X AC. You'll notice that the IS has counters to the Clan range with their own long range weapons not to forget my proposed durability changes making it easier to negate that range in the open.

Battletech had 30 years to balance why didn't PGI use that knoweldge?

The only range in that there spreadsheet which isn't based off of the 30m per hex rule is the Clan ER Medium Laser because it would've synced to well with the Clan Large Pulse Laser and we all know what would happen if it had the same optimal range because we've already been through that.

Now if people really want to keep the weapon modules then you reduce the ranges by 10% and you can still keep them, I personally think they should remove all modules as they never existed in Battletech. Adv. Zoom should either be a standard feature or part of the Targeting Computer, which will not increase weapon ranges since all it did in Battletech was improve accuracy not range, obviously with MWO being point and click (no weapon drift, recoil etc.) that isn't possible, so having the critical chance multiplier it has and adding in the Adv. Zoom makes sense.

Edited by RaelM, 09 January 2016 - 06:36 PM.

[Der Hesse]

Maximus Wolf, on 09 January 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

First, please let me me say that I respect you very much, Der Hesse. But...

You're definitely don't play clan site (a lot). Cause in your Timbie config you see 240 CUAC10 ammo and think it's a lot. The problem is that it's not and a lot of IS pilots making this mistake not knowing clan mechanics very well.

C-AC10 and C-UAC10 shot 3 rounds with 3.33 dmg per each with one salvo. So, in our clan universe 3 C-AC10/C-UAC10 rounds = 1 IS AC10/UAC10 round. That comes to following fact: your build has only 210/3=70 shots. Which, in case with 2 guns in fact is 70/2=35 shots. And I'm pretty sure you understand that your ammo will be depleted VERY fast with UACs.

Argument still stands. Ammo was just one of the advantages i did list. Ok, CUAC10 uses 3 shots, but if you consider that you need 2 UAC5 for the same Damage you got 2 shots in IS too. Now consider all the other advantages, especially tonnage difference 2 UAC5 / 1 CUAC10 and you get what i mean.

[Director Kobil]

Dont forget that pgi is not the inventor of this game, there have been working rules for many years, decades. if pgi is changing that, the gamephysics is not working anymore like it should do.So its not that easy what they try to do and the result is an epic failure. They should not try to change technology of clan or IS, or tonnage, They can just adjust the amount of opponents, so not 12 vs 12, they should try 12 vs 9 or something like that. And this would be like the intended rules of the bidding process of Clan, to take a minimized group against the opponent into the field. so why try changing things that wont work, when there are rules and techniques for that.

Dont forget : Clan ERPPC should do 15 dmg,have Hyper Velocity Gauss Rifle 40, Improved Heavy Large Laser, Long Tom,Arrow IV and other Artillery Canons, advanced tactical missiles and so on and so, so have the inner sphere Hatchets, caseless AC ammo, Master Control Computer , etc.
So even with our basic weaponry PGI just building up frustated players.

[StonedVet]

Rad Hanzo, on 09 January 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

Kotev ?

Might wanna join our TS for a ride along and see for yourself what´s what ?

Yesterday´s (and this mornings )fights were mostly against 2323, WMDx and a few other units .
Good fights all around, thanks again guys for KEEPING CW ALIVE .

And trust me on one thing, mate : Units want to fight units . My unit (77th Grey Guards) wans to fight others . MS wants us to fight tough opponents, NOT BEGINNERS .


And for "bad clan players" :
Sorry if I piss you off with it, but as I told in another thread : I see people engaging me with SPL on 1k distance, while I paint their Battlemechs with ERL´s, and they just stand there, no torsotwst, no movement, no nothing .
And that is bad, aye ?
I would be helping if some of them had at least chat on, but tanks to PGI chat/teamchat/voip are turned off by default.

We had alot on last night. We had a great time as always in CW.

[Aiden Skye]

Marc von der Heide, on 04 January 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

I wouldn't be spamming BO propaganda around. This is how some of your guys act when they are pugging and the match is not going their way. Lots of players from all these pug stomping units do this. They come in. Insult everyone and then proceed to make fools of them selves, not putting any effort out.

[Maximus Wolf]

Der Hesse, on 10 January 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

Argument still stands. Ammo was just one of the advantages i did list. Ok, CUAC10 uses 3 shots, but if you consider that you need 2 UAC5 for the same Damage you got 2 shots in IS too. Now consider all the other advantages, especially tonnage difference 2 UAC5 / 1 CUAC10 and you get what i mean.

Yep, in general you are right, our CUACs are more lightweight, occupy less crit slots and even cost less. As a proud pilot of direwhale with 2xAUAC10+2xCUAC5 I can tell you that 5-6 seconds of direct fire at medium range has a very devastating effect from critical CT+ST to annihilation depending on on 'mech cheats quirks and pilot's skills. But it's called direwhale for a reason and if you get close enough I just can't turn like at all. And compared to Atlas it has like twice less survivability.

Timbie that you've mentioned also has it's problems and in compression to IS mechs it's just made of paper. Yeah, in random matches I usually do like 700-900 dmg with it (C-ERPPC+4xSRM6+4xC-ERSL) using chaos within enemy team and my speed+manoeuvrability, but in CW it just doesn't work and you die in one well-focused shot.

I'm just trying to say that in some cases our weapon is better (only in some), but mechs itself are not that OP if you play them a lot and do really know what have they become.

Edited by Maximus Wolf, 10 January 2016 - 07:46 AM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Rad Hanzo, on 08 January 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

Balance is good, certainly better than before so I hardly can understand the need for all the lamenting from Clan side .
Yes, IS and Clan have performance outliers, and ? Not everything is as good as the other, ye know ?
Yes, IS structure buffs where a bit ... much, so ? Don´t go for the CT then, derp .
Yes, burntimes on Clan lasers is LONG, and ? Hold it properly on target and the lazurs will do their job .

Maybe all you bad clan players should go and watch a recording of -BO-, 228 or KCOM or even better get a lesson from those guys, since they have their stuff nailed down and many of you Clan players obviously don´t .

ADAPT
OVERCOME
SURVIVE

#thinkingmansshooter

Yep, you are totally right!!!
That is why me, and alot of ex-clan players moved to IS
We adapted, we overcomed and now, with IS super quirked mechs, we survive and win

[B0oN]

Most excellent, Spadejack !