447 replies to this topic

[Stingray Productions]

When I play IS, I usually loose. When I play Clan, I usually loose. The one main reason is the fact that I'm just not as skilled at CW, so I blame myself first. Other than that, fighting against 12 mans is what make it hardest for me. It's ok though, CW is supposed to be harder (in my opinion).

[Jonathan Paine]

For the poor Clanners who think that lasers are a brawling weapon:
Try SRMs (half the weight of IS!)
Try quad LBX10's on a Dire (funny how that 1 ton discount makes the LBX viable for some builds)
Try mixing and matching UACs (quad UAC10 double tap harsh heat, 2xUAC10+2xUAC5 not so much)
Try SRMs with a UAC20 (c'mon, compared to IS these weigh nothing and the damage is insane!)

As for ERLL range spam:
Live with the fact that some quirked IS mechs can do some laser vomit better than Clan (unless you are smart and use warhawk+TC, but why think...)

Edited by Jonathan Paine, 20 January 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Spadejack, on 20 January 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

multitude? really? well, let me say that im one of those experienced players, and i also do know alot of experienced players that says that IS has the advantage, on EVERYTHING, however small it may be.
facts are facts, and your trolling is just that, trolling.
By the way, im having a blast using "inferior" IS mechs, and showing those clanners how "inferior" IS mechs are... but, almost every single clan player knows that...

When did I say IS mechs are inferior?

Your "facts" are either incorrect, based on false assumptions, or do not consider all factors. I'm not trolling, I'm just right. The truth hurts. Own your losses as personal failures instead of blaming balance.

kamiko kross, on 20 January 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

It's not just him though Gas is it?
Every single "balance is fine" or "it's the best it's ever been" are guilty of the same thing. Just because it's close now, doesn't mean it's correct!
We should be looking at the outliers and getting them sorted out properly, such things as negative quirks on some clan chassis-are they really needed now? IS vs Is balance seems great to me now, had some good games vs other Is teams...but IS vs clan still don't seem "there" yet.
I used to occasionally drop with your unit as a puggy tag-along, I was present many times when your guys just rolled clan units BEFORE the nerfs,unless we ran up against a REALLY good clan unit it was easy then...why? Because you guys leveraged the Is advatnages really well:
Survivability
Short duration weapons
Less heat (major one here)
PPFLD builds.
You know as well as I do-that even then if we just pushed hard nearly everytime we could just outbrawl clanners and that was before the last round of nerfs...which led to many Is mechs getting better and clans took heat hits again AND the side torso nerf...sp logically they do have to be a bit (however small) worse off than before.

That marginal imbalance you mentioned I agree with, however the mechs that make up that imbalance are what most clan players face constantly-which in turn skews their perspective.

"Balance is fine" and "balance is best it's ever been" are just flat out wrong though-we all deep down know it isn't, how about we point out what meeds to be adjusted and get the baance right?

Look, I'll admit that mechs like the Blackjack are a little too tough for their size, and things like that. There are a couple of minor imbalances here and there, but the argument about how IS mechs are "SO OP" is ********, that's all I'm saying.

[Russhuster]

Gas,
Speaking of minor imbalances in context with the Blackjack is a spitting image in itself and you know that

And you know as well its not just the BJ there are other quirkbuckets

and be it the quirks on IS side allone the sh.t would not be smoking on the door

But the continuous double hit by the big goodie bag for IS AND the Nerfbat for Clan AT THE SAME TIME

did just too much for many players. So many made theyr decision,.. playing elösewhere by now or if we were lucky just changed sides to IS

But lets wait and see if the next clan packs are selling or those nerfed Pixels are played

The player numbers on Clanside were down this TUK event and without the big merc s on clanside this TUK

would ve been a crushing loss

Now what would you say if that trend PGI is showing continues,.. and it will as they are massive IS fanboys
What will next TUK look like?

Edited by Russhuster, 20 January 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Russhuster, on 20 January 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Gas,
Speaking of minor imbalances in context with the Blackjack is a spitting image in itself and you know that

and be it the quirks on IS side allone the sh.t would not be smoking on the door

But the continuous souble hit by the big goodie bag for IS AND the Nerfbat for Clan AT THE SAME TIME

did just too much for many players.

But lets wait and see if the next clan packs are selling or are played

What do you mean? Its a minor imbalance. 42 damage at 264 meters, 35 or so at 324. My Crow does 40 damage at 450m. Want to brawl? 9 cSPL, 54 damage. The fact that the BJ take a couple extra shots is a minor imbalance.

I played Clan. I experienced the "suck" that you claim embodies the Clans after the simultaneous nerfbat and IS buff event. And I am not impressed with the sweeping statements of imbalance. My unit went to CJF and rolled pugs just as easily, and competed with units that we have always competed with. There was no "Wow this is harder than usual", and we won some and lost some (speaking primarily of 228th and MS when they were IS). We competed. Plain and simple. I never felt like I had an uphill battle, its just plain and simple gameplay, and trying to outplay the other guy. That's why I don't sympathize with these people talking about how OP IS mechs are. They die just like everything else.

[Russhuster]

well then i have to say i feel like having a big advantagewhen iam playing IS mechs... so i must be wrong
obviously

YEAH

[Gas Guzzler]

Russhuster, on 20 January 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

well then i have to say i feel like having a big advantagewhen iam playing IS mechs... so i must be wrong
obviously

YEAH

What are you using? Are you fighting long range poke mechs at close range with a BJ-1X and winning? Duh. They screwed up, that doesn't prove anything.

[Jon Gotham]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 January 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

When did I say IS mechs are inferior?

Your "facts" are either incorrect, based on false assumptions, or do not consider all factors. I'm not trolling, I'm just right. The truth hurts. Own your losses as personal failures instead of blaming balance.



Look, I'll admit that mechs like the Blackjack are a little too tough for their size, and things like that. There are a couple of minor imbalances here and there, but the argument about how IS mechs are "SO OP" is ********, that's all I'm saying.

Yeah I get you, really I do but it is skewed towards Is no matter how slightly and I just wanted to point this out if possible. We have a lot of Is guys who are flat out spamming "balance is fine lalalalala" because they know this and want to keep that edge. I want both sets of tech to be equally viable, as i play both.
I've adapted my clan mechs builds, every single mech. I ditched the longer duration weapons and shifted back to PPFLD weapons in the main. I felt the issue for me was the stare time required of the clan weapons vs the structure quirks and shorter duration weapons of the IS.
I've adapted, I've overcome. But does that mean balance is still fine?

[Gas Guzzler]

kamiko kross, on 20 January 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

Yeah I get you, really I do but it is skewed towards Is no matter how slightly and I just wanted to point this out if possible. We have a lot of Is guys who are flat out spamming "balance is fine lalalalala" because they know this and want to keep that edge. I want both sets of tech to be equally viable, as i play both.
I've adapted my clan mechs builds, every single mech. I ditched the longer duration weapons and shifted back to PPFLD weapons in the main. I felt the issue for me was the stare time required of the clan weapons vs the structure quirks and shorter duration weapons of the IS.
I've adapted, I've overcome. But does that mean balance is still fine?

Well I'm a proponent of halving the BJ's structure quirks. Some people are saying Quickdraw OP. I could go either way on that one, maybe a slight tone down? It's pretty squishy as it is though.

[Jon Gotham]

Honestly it's nice to see the QKD in use:) The BJ though is...insane, perfect puggy queue farmer though.....

[Jack Spade Ward]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 January 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

When did I say IS mechs are inferior?

Your "facts" are either incorrect, based on false assumptions, or do not consider all factors. I'm not trolling, I'm just right. The truth hurts. Own your losses as personal failures instead of blaming balance.



Look, I'll admit that mechs like the Blackjack are a little too tough for their size, and things like that. There are a couple of minor imbalances here and there, but the argument about how IS mechs are "SO OP" is ********, that's all I'm saying.

Personal failures? LOL
Learn the game, learn the lore, grow up then we talk

[Gas Guzzler]

Spadejack, on 20 January 2016 - 02:17 PM, said:

Personal failures? LOL
Learn the game, learn the lore, grow up then we talk

*shrugs*

Believe whatever you want.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 20 January 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[DivineEvil]

ch3sn0k, on 20 January 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

Some people had some nice fortune using Flamers and were fine with their performance. Doesn't make Flamer a useful weapon.

CGBI are not "some people".

Quote

Yes, a burst of 4 shells on a moving twisting target is always going to land like a single IS shell. Just as pinpoint.

I've never implied it will hit like a single shell. However good you are at leading a moving target, and whenever you'd shoose to fire at the twisting enemy, is both up to you.

Quote

You mean as in right now? Gauss is laughably useless, lrms are the same, clan autocannons might as well be called shotguns, erppcs have the travel speed of a clamshell with the damage of ac/10 and highest heat in the game. Gee, I wonder why competitive people only use laser vomit builds?

That's what I call false presuppositions, right here.

Quote

Apparently 1.5 - 0.8 equals 0.25. Why are you even posting in this thread if you fail at basic math?

Clan ER-LL burn 1.5 - IS ER-LL burn 1.25 = 0.25 difference. Basic math. What's that 0.8 stands for, by the way?

Quote

Support ERLL builds that require you to present your whole profile (can't have them tasty high torso mounts, clanner scum!) for 1.5 seconds for the enemy to shred? And you still wonder why clans never play the range sniping game?

For as long as I can remember CW games, sniping was the thing that Clans did all the time. Stormcrows don't have high torso mounts? Shadow Cats? Ebon Hawks? Hellbringers? I'm not even talking about shooting around cover, which seems too complicated for the minds of some Clanners. You're seem new around here.

Quote

Ridiculous extra heat and burn time are practical considerations, that rightfully buried any serious use of CERLL. CERML is only used because it's much harder to cram CMPL in it's place.

Both were used ever since the Omni-Mech introduction. As usual, ignoring positives for the sake of an argument.

Quote

Unsubstantiated hearsay.

90% of arguments I respond to are unsubstantiated hearsay.
7th MRBC league season is about to begin. European Division B. We shall see.

Quote

Ad hominem.

Deserved one. Someone, who's abandoning a faction as soon as there's first-ever challenge playing for it is not someone who's capable of making claims about balance. Only someone who played/plays extensively and critically can.

Thereby I welcome a new Forum Warrior to the field.

Edited by DivineEvil, 20 January 2016 - 06:14 PM.

[ch3sn0k]

DivineEvil, on 20 January 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

CGBI are not "some people".

Argumentum ad verecundiam

DivineEvil, on 20 January 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

I've never implied the weapons are competitive, however good the enemy is, you need to be times better. Whenever you'd choose to use a clearly inferior weapon is up to you.

DivineEvil, on 20 January 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

That's what I call false presuppositions, right here.

Either refute the point or don't quote.

DivineEvil, on 20 January 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

For as long as I can remember CW games, sniping was the thing that Clans did all the time. Stormcrows don't have high torso mounts? Shadow Cats? Ebon Hawks? Hellbringers? I'm not even talking about shooting around cover, which seems too complicated for the minds of some Clanners. You're seem new around here.

No ****, back when clans had the clear range and damage advantage they did sniping. But luckily we're not discussing the days of $300 timber wolves?

DivineEvil, on 20 January 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Both were used ever since the Omni-Mech introduction. As usual, ignoring positives for the sake of an argument.

Again, we're not talking about the 'good old days'. Right now there is no point in having a CERLL over CLPL, both in public drops and in CW.

DivineEvil, on 20 January 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

90% of arguments I respond to are unsubstantiated hearsay.
7th MRBC league season is about to begin. European Division B. We shall see.

I thought we were discussing MWO CW balance, not third party leagues? Moving goalposts much?

DivineEvil, on 20 January 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Deserved one. Someone, who's abandoning a faction as soon as there's first-ever challenge playing for it is not someone who's capable of making claims about balance. Only someone who played/plays extensively and critically can.

4 nerf hammers in a row is not a first-ever challenge.

DivineEvil, on 20 January 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Thereby I welcome a new Forum Warrior to the field.

Apparently you need to waste your time arguing with nerds on the internet, otherwise your opinion is instantly invalidated.

[iLLcapitan]

I will welcome switching back to clans for a while with my unit. With my omnis I farm more damage (IS mechs take generally more of a beating) and thus get more Cbills. When it comes to a competitive match against another capable unit, deciding factors are rather groupsize, who is attacking/defending and stuff like that.

That clans are unplayable in CW is simply a wrong assumption to begin with (in my eyes). Because you got stomped while in a 12-man, doesn't mean balance is off - maybe you just got some decent players on the other side.

As others have mentioned, a few IS machines are a bit over the top and some mechs (on both sides) still need some luv.

[Der Hesse]

So i had my duel with spadejack.
In fact we did two 1/1 fights.

I did tell that i would drive a crow he then decided to drive a hunchback. Map was decided by spadejack
The match was VERY close with only the question who would get the last hit. It was spadejack. I missed my last shot badly, shut down and got killed while his hunchback was orange or red cored center and one side torso.
My loadout was pretty simple with 4 CSRM6 artemis and 4 CERML, no modules but mech mastered.
The first part of the match i did hit him on 400-600 meters with my lasers, where he nearly didn´t shoot back. Only amrs were yellow. Not sure anymore about his loadout, but it must have been brawly. I just did run from him and shoot him. He couldn´t get all to close. Because of the ability of the crow to turn the torso pretty far i could easily do so.
When i had his ct armor removed i thought i could get into brawling with my still nearly fresh mech and end the match faster which was a bad decision because he did a good job on evading my SRM alphas.

Second match i took the same mech and told him so. He then decided to show me how unbalanced the blackjack is and used a blackjack with 3 LPL. When i noticed that in the match i charged him knowing that i would have better chances in brawlingdistance. My speed allowed me to do so. He tried to get away but decided to stay when i opened his back with my lasers. He couldn´t use my run and shoot tactic because his torso doesn´t go as far as the crows. In the following brawl i shred him to pieces with CSRM alphas. When he died to his ISXLEngine i still hat armor on every single location. He told me his blackjack wasn´t even basiced.

So for me it was balanced matches. Here is my opinion why:
The first match was a good fight. If i would have sticked to my initial tactic i´m sure i would have won. When we started to brawl he was clearly better then me. I missed to many shots and the hunchback seemed to have a nice DPS. I would say he indeed had the advantage in the brawl even with 5 tons less. But in the first part of the match i was clearly in favor without giving up too many brawling capability in my build.

In the second match i was clearly in the better mech. It´s hard to tell how much difference the 10 tons and the mastered mech make, but i did win very clearly. The Blackjack didn´t stand a chance and i can´t believe that a mastered blackjack would have done much better.

I don´t run Clan mechs. Even the crows that i own were mastered months ago and never again touched. I didn´t even change my setup for a 1/1. It was a pretty basic setup not favored on metamechs. Who knows what happened if i used the 3 LPL metabuild.

Still.....it just shows two fights between pilots with maybe different skills and doesn´t say too much about balance but if IS mechs and especially the Blackjack would be so ridiculously overpowered like some Clan players say then especially the second match should have endet closer or with a win for spadejack, right?

I´m still convinced that tech balance is pretty good atm., while Clans and IS just have to use different tactics to maximise their winning chances.
Clanners in general have best chances while skirmishing, controlling the firedistances of the match and reacting faster to enemy movement.
IS in general have best chances while pushing and forcing the Clanners into brawls where they in general have an advantage because of better sustained fire.

[Jon Gotham]

Der Hesse, do you have a Shadowcat or an Ice Ferret? Might have been better to test vs a mech of same weight. Though on second fight I'm surprised he didn't just core you though. 33pt near pp alpha? Did you guys record the fights?

[Der Hesse]

Only thing i have is the crow and a single madcat i did win in some event. Never played it though.
I didn´t record it. I´m a tech noob. ^^

However it´s no hard evidence for either side anyway.

I think i´m a pretty good pilot for a filthy casual. Not competitive material but still good enough. And when i´m in one of my meta blackjacks (6ml/2mpl or 3 LPL) i wouldn´t risk a 1/1 fight against any crow with a CSRM equipment and a pilot i know the name of. Not to mention heavier Clan mechs with some exceptions that indeed are not tier 1 or even tier 2.
Especially CSRMS are frightening in this case because the blackjack has such a quadratic and easy to hit torso (ct and sidetorsos all together). Just like the Awesome in small. I for my part love to shoot those.

I think that the blackjack is overrated. I do much better in my Hunchbacks or Griffins. But i wouldn´t say it´s bad. It surely is tier 1 but never ever god tier. I even removed it from my CW dropdecks. For the Griffin 2N and 2 hunchback (P and SP) variants. But that´s my opinion and may have to do with my personal playstyle.

[Inkarnus]

wow so you FINALLY said that you only know one side the IS side ty vm

Der Hesse, on 21 January 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

Only thing i have is the crow and a single madcat i did win in some event. Never played it though.

[Gas Guzzler]

Inkarnus, on 21 January 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

wow so you FINALLY said that you only know one side the IS side ty vm

Well to be fair Spadejack is arguing just the same and his Blackjack isn't even basiced, showing that he only really knows fighting against it...