447 replies to this topic

[Degalus]

Pgi should finaly make NPCs so they can test with identical enemys ^^

Edited by Degalus, 03 February 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Degalus, on 03 February 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

Pgi should finaly make NPCs so they can test with identical enemys ^^

Damn good ideia, i just hope the single player wont take long

[Jack Spade Ward]

WVAnonymous, on 02 February 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Somewhere in this thread a few weeks back I think I mentioned OLD spent a week as Jade Falcon. When we had 8 or more in the drop, we were close to 100% over any opposition that didn't have at least a 6 man on the other side. I think we were better than 50% against 8+ man teams. We're reasonably sure the mechs aren't the key factor in the game, it's the pilots.

The CW balance problem was (and is) that two thirds or more of the games we drop as FRR, the biggest unit on the clan side is ONE. We club the baby seals, thank them for their time, and encourage them to join units. Really, we do, we aren't "ggclose" types.

Actually, what you just said about only one big team on the clan side is not what makes it unbalanced, that is a consequence of the unbalance between clans and IS. Many clan based players went to IS just because how bad clans have become.
The list in how bad clan mechs are is a big one. Fortunatly, PGI has recognized some of the problem, but clan tech is still way too nerfed. Lets see after February patch how good / bad clans will become.

This all problem is because that Clan tech is suposed to be better, in every way compared to IS, the game is unbalanced by nature! The fact that PGI is trying to balance things makes it, in my opinion, a futile effort.

The way to colmatate this is by giving IS some advantages that are in the LORE, like logistics, 10 v 12, bigger tonnage to IS, make repair stations a reality only to IS, diferent weapon manufacturers giving diferent bonuses to the same weapon (for example: 1 medium laser made by one manufacturer gives less range, but higher damage, another manufacturer would make the medium laser with more range but with higher heat, and so on), keep some of the quirks, but take off all the super quirks!

These would be all lore based and would give IS a very nice dynamic compared to the clans, that would have the slightly better tech.

On pug drops, just put those clan vs clan, IS vs IS. Problem solved

Edited by Spadejack, 03 February 2016 - 01:57 PM.

[WVAnonymous]

Spadejack, on 03 February 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

This all problem is because that Clan tech is suposed to be better, in every way compared to IS, the game is unbalanced by nature! The fact that PGI is trying to balance things makes it, in my opinion, a futile effort.

The way to colmatate this is by giving IS some advantages that are in the LORE, like logistics, 10 v 12, bigger tonnage to IS, make repair stations a reality only to IS, diferent weapon manufacturers giving diferent bonuses to the same weapon (for example: 1 medium laser made by one manufacturer gives less range, but higher damage, another manufacturer would make the medium laser with more range but with higher heat, and so on), keep some of the quirks, but take off all the super quirks!

These would be all lore based and would give IS a very nice dynamic compared to the clans, that would have the slightly better tech.

Let the Clan side bid on the drop and divide the payout among the size of the team. Pay us 20% more to do a 10 man drop, we'd switch back to Clan as soon as our contract expires.

[Kshat]

If you measure your experience of "we were a group of six and had an even match versus PUGs, balance is fine", this thread will lead to nothing.

Just ask some of the bigger units for the opinion of their welltrained 12man groups, with which mechs they find it easier to oppose any enemy.
Or a lot of their teams know their fellow comrades, ask them which side will win if you would equip one of their comp teams with IS and the other one with Clan.

The truth is, if I would be asked to recite my experience during any CW drop, my answer had to be: we chose the right strategy and the right mechs (longrange, brawl etc) according to it. We know which mechs/builds are up to the task regardless the side we've taken. And therefore we would've won/stomped/whatever in any case.

I think the IS is on a good way balancewise. I like that they emphasize agility quirks for bigger chassis and i know that some chassis need offensive quirks in order to be remotely playable.
What I don't understand is, why a Locust gets (muchneeded) offensive quirks whereas a Mist Lynx gets nerfed by global changes to Clanweapons. Or why an ACH gets durabilityquirks when on the other side a Jenner, with worse hitboxes, ships completely quirkless. And more or less similar offensive capabilities, just without ECM.

Clanmechs need some overhaul, and if a Clanmech or even a IIC-mech got one certain loadout which performs rather well, but every other is just crap, they should add specific weapon quirks in order get some diversity into the game.
And with Omnimechs, there are a lot of omnipods from a time where quirks weren't given, so they don't have such quirks. Newer pods, with even better hardpoints, got some quirks. They might be slight, but it doesn't make sense that a pod with worse hardpoints loses out on quirks, too.

[Charles Sennet]

Yes, teams can make up for a lot but the problem is at every tonnage level IS mechs are better than Clan right now. Need proof? Look no further than what competitive teams bring to matches. Not a lot of Clan tech in there.

[DivineEvil]

Charles Sennet, on 08 February 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

Yes, teams can make up for a lot but the problem is at every tonnage level IS mechs are better than Clan right now. Need proof? Look no further than what competitive teams bring to matches. Not a lot of Clan tech in there.

We had some pre-season MRBC training matches with other competetive units, and Clan mechs are still taken as usual, when they fit the chosen concept. Cheetahs, Stormcrows, Timbers and some others are still seen as strong picks. The difference is, they're no longer seen as mandatory, and that's about it.

[Russhuster]

what others like in .......?

[DivineEvil]

Russhuster, on 09 February 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

what others like in .......?

Is that supposed to mean something?

Edited by DivineEvil, 10 February 2016 - 07:18 AM.

[Russhuster]

with "some others" you do mean what chassis ?

[DivineEvil]

Adders, Hellbringers, Ebon Jaguars and Warhawks.

[Russhuster]

well if you have no better solutions Players are forced to use not competetive material like the Warhawk etc.
The sad truth is there isnt one viable mech on Clanside in the assault sector
except with the EBJ what is a competeive mech all mentioned sad robots are underperforming and suffering severely from the actual situation

[Gorgo7]

Russhuster, on 10 February 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

well if you have no better solutions Players are forced to use not competetive material like the Warhawk etc.
The sad truth is there isnt one viable mech on Clanside in the assault sector
except with the EBJ what is a competeive mech all mentioned sad robots are underperforming and suffering severely from the actual situation

HAHAHAHA!

[Jack Spade Ward]

So, thoughts about Clan vs IS balance since the latest patch?

In my opinion, it didnt changed much... the heatsink nerf still gives an ultra edge to the IS...
The lower clan mechs have gotten a liltle better, but not as good as everyone hoped for.
But i see the warhawk being a solution to the assault class. Gargoyles and Executioners are still way bad...
Some people will disagree with me regarding the EXC, actually, ive seen people doing very well with them!
But, overall, i think those mechs arent there yet...

Good job on MASC! It feels diferent, more efective!

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

I love how clanners talk about ridiculous range of their lasers, "forgetting" their own C-ERLL base range, receiving quirks for "downer" mechs and tracking computers. On lesser ranges, it's even worse.
You can pack 6MPL timber wolf with cool tracking comp that violates 40 damage threshold on ranges, got 392M optimal (It's modulated LPL range we are talking about), may spew 2 alpha strikes without shutting down while being reasonably fast with dissipating that heat, all with insane crits on top (Even if I won't magically kill the structure on IS mech, I am 100% sured that I'll pop some internals with each strike and will have 100% chance of destruction for every Gauss I'll run across with half of it). It wouldn't be that OP it it wasn't for one thing - Timber Wolf LT S-pod, which allows you to hill peak like god with half the strike, which is still 21 damage. If clans will ever get 3LL no ghost-heat treatment, it will be a plain cheating.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Confirmed Cheater, on 21 February 2016 - 02:10 AM, said:

I love how clanners talk about ridiculous range of their lasers, "forgetting" their own C-ERLL base range, receiving quirks for "downer" mechs and tracking computers. On lesser ranges, it's even worse.
You can pack 6MPL timber wolf with cool tracking comp that violates 40 damage threshold on ranges, got 392M optimal (It's modulated LPL range we are talking about), may spew 2 alpha strikes without shutting down while being reasonably fast with dissipating that heat, all with insane crits on top (Even if I won't magically kill the structure on IS mech, I am 100% sured that I'll pop some internals with each strike and will have 100% chance of destruction for every Gauss I'll run across with half of it). It wouldn't be that OP it it wasn't for one thing - Timber Wolf LT S-pod, which allows you to hill peak like god with half the strike, which is still 21 damage. If clans will ever get 3LL no ghost-heat treatment, it will be a plain cheating.

Sorry man,but no good player on the clan side will use the CERLL, that is simply a really bad weapon, no matter what you might think, 1,5s for a burn is simply way to much. That is why good clan players wont use them, they prefer the pulse laser

[DivineEvil]

Spadejack, on 21 February 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Sorry man,but no good player on the clan side will use the CERLL, that is simply a really bad weapon, no matter what you might think, 1,5s for a burn is simply way to much. That is why good clan players wont use them, they prefer the pulse laser

That's kinda the opposite - it takes a particularly good player for being able to make use of that longer burn time, dealing higher damage over longer base range. 0.25 burn time is not that much of big difference.

Clans get weapons with better performance per 1 ton. What they pay for it is higher skill requirement to use them to the maximum potential. So, for every case, whether Lasers or AC's, it comes down to one's ability to land their damage where one's want it.

Edited by DivineEvil, 22 February 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[Vermaxx]

CW was a gimmick to sell clan mechs to people desperate to roleplay out their BT superiority fantasies. It was never balanced, it was never engrossing, it never had a point. I understand the "competitive" players enjoyed early success as clan and probably made a lot of money. Of course there's really nothing to spend that money on.

Even MPBT 3025 had a better warfare mechanic - and it literally had zero meaning other than a colorful map. But the map updated in real time and let you see who was having a major offensive. It also let teams cap without opponents and launch partial games.

The underlying problem is that MWO never developed into a GAME. It's a fun deathmatch mech shooter with BT flavor, but it isn't a true BT and it's a really strange MW title. The depth generally associated with a full release GAME never showed up. There's no role warfare, there's no incentive to be smaller mechs (other than you need 3/3/3/3, which is completely stupid), there's no goals other than a map that updates a couple times a day and putting your "unit name" on a "planet."

The other big problem is that the "competitive" players all continually glob onto whichever side is or seems to be mathematically superior. IE, you're usually not fighting your own skill level, you're fighting the gutter trash that filters in.

CW should not be 12 on 12, or it shouldn't be equal lives. I know this means we cannot have mixed teams in standard queue, and I'd gladly give that up if clan mechs could be what they're supposed to be - grossly more powerful but highly outnumbered.

[Mechi Messer]

Spadejack, on 21 February 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Sorry man,but no good player on the clan side will use the CERLL, that is simply a really bad weapon, no matter what you might think, 1,5s for a burn is simply way to much. That is why good clan players wont use them, they prefer the pulse laser

Except for boreal (Defence, Hold territory) this is true. When I did my mechbaytour I used a 4 erll hellbringer on boreal and cracked the 1000 dmg mark quite often with it. Back in IS now I'm seeing a lot of decent to good clan-units melting wave after wave with massed erlls. This is the only map where the longer burntime and heatmanagement don't make much difference. I was quite surprised how fast my battlemaster withered away when clanpilots didn't want me to get through the door.
On every other map c-erlls are pointless in my opinion.

[Dawnstealer]

Spadejack, on 13 January 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

LOL
On par??? Sorry, no... way superior to any clan mech!
85 ton Stalker vs a 75 Timber? Well, acording to LORE, a timber should take care even an Atlas, the fact you can go toe to toe with a Timber in your Stlaker makes your mech and its quirks OP. Besides, people still talk about the timber, but the Ebon Jaguar is way better.
Clan mechs die to fast, no quirks or negative quirks, have a tech tree suposed to be better but in this game is way worst... do i need to keep this going?
Tell me of a clan mech and ill tell you of an IS mech wich is way better, any clan mech!

I...I literally have no idea what you're saying here. So in your argument, the problem isn't that a 75 ton mech should be the at least the equal of an 85 ton mech, but that it should be BETTER than a 100-tonner? Are you being serious?

I'm going to guess you're joking. Or at least I sure hope so.

I'm going to add something I've been saying since Clan mechs rolled out in this game: they are a balancing nightmare.

One of FASA's big regrets with Battletech was the implementation of the Clans, rules-wise. Don't get me wrong, they were an incredible role-playing foil, and from that aspect of the game, it was loads of fun: the Clans were practically alien.

But implementing all of that into a rule set that's fair to both sides? HARD.

And in an online, player vs player game like MWO, damn near impossible. Your options are:

• Make Clans NPCs, controlled by the computer, so they play "in character"
  
• Make Clans have inferior numbers or other similar controls, but retain their "supermech" status. Not particularly fun to play against, but if you get enough players on the IS side, they can win (after a lot of them die)
  
• Somehow balance the vastly superior Clan tech to IS with hand-wavey stuff.

Guess which PGI went with?

And I don't blame them. Personally, I would have balanced the Clans with range vs damage. So IS weapons would be inefficient and relatively short-ranged, but do a lot of damage. Meanwhile, Clan weapons would do less damage, but have longer range and more consistent damage while being more efficient.

Either way, if you go with #3, they have to balance out: a 75 ton Clan Mech should be roughly equivalent to a 75 ton IS mech, or there's just no point.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 22 February 2016 - 01:46 PM.