13 replies to this topic

[Fleeb the Mad]

So lately there've been a lot of threads complaining about map voting for one reason or another. By one reason or another I mean people being dragged into modes they don't want and by lately I mean since voting started.

I'm here to make a case that game modes can dramatically change how different maps play, and in particular how playing conquest on maligned maps can actually be excellent. Except nobody knows that because who chooses to play conquest? Maniacs? Masochists?

Maps with one dominant terrain feature are universally awful when there's no reason for the teams to split up. Terra Therma, Caustic, Alpine. Everyone piles in towards the dominant position in the center and there's very little variety to gameplay. On those maps the central dominant feature is sterile and doesn't contribute much to what teams can do. Caustic becomes a runaround because crossing through the center is extremely risky as it has no cover, and for the most part the sides of the volcano also offer little or no cover. Options are to poke on the crater rim or try to approach around the sides. Everyone knows how that goes. Alpine offers one domineering firing position that's difficult to attack, leaving the team that doesn't get up there first facing either an assault on bad terms or camping in some other part of the map and making the match a test of patience. Terra Therma has its open crater with the choke points that become a traffic jam.

Though if you actually think about it, all those maps have good terrain in the parts that nobody goes to. In most circumstances that's worthless, except for one. The forbidden game mode.

Conquest is the only game mode that gives people a reason to go away from the center of the map. For example I've had some great matches on terra thema conquest. I will use my vote multipliers to make that happen. The lance spawns are spaced far enough apart that each one can (and usually does) move in on a separate objective, which creates a bunch of localized small battles, and they're not close enough together that two friendly lances can easily link up without slowing down dramatically. So if everyone rushes forward towards their closest objective, you usually wind up with teams split up fighting lance vs lance, and the central volcano with its limited access along with the map size actually prevents an enemy deathball from massing in the center and plowing down through a split team before they can respond.

Conquest on alpine moves the fighting off the central peak, because it makes camping there with the whole team a guaranteed loss. Once fighting is down among all the small hills and valleys there's actually ways to approach the objectives under cover, and teams tend to break up and move around them in battles that actually flow. There are means to withdraw and move forward, and it only works in conquest because it's the only mode in which the hill's firing position doesn't deny options to the team that's not on top of it.

I'm afraid caustic only offers meager improvement, though it's still quantifiable. Did you know the perimeter of the expanded map is full of sheltered valleys full of cover? There's a cool rock field that would make great brawling territory. Except...nobody ever goes there. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people don't even know it exists. It's there. Go to the testing grounds and head to B5.

A lot of these valleys even offer good firing positions on the volcano flanks with hard cover. In skirmish or assault, trying to move the fight away from the volcano tends to mean your team needs to move there and wait for the enemy to get impatient and come to you. While conquest actually gives reasons to move outwards, the map suffers from its objectives being placed from when it was a smaller map, and they're not taking people to the cool new stuff they added.

I'm also going to shamelessly plug conquest making matches on popular maps like Crimson Straights better because it again, gives incentives for people not to pile up on the top deck and camp there.

I gather the reason people don't like conquest is because it requires them to break out of boxed tactics because it plays differently, particularly on one-trick maps like alpine. For anyone who's ever wanted smaller games or more variety in game modes, you should be trying to swing conquest if you get pulled into a map you don't normally like. It will give you more of what you want.

Do it. Vote for conquest on maps you don't like. Use your power for good.

[Hit the Deck]

That's why I always pick Conquest on Alpine and Terra. Conquest on Alpine is probably my favorite combo.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Conquest on Alpine definitely improves the map, but you still need a med-long range config to get the most out of it (I play mostly brawlers with only the smallest handful of med-long range configs). It's much more dynamic, which is a plus... I still cringe when I start on the downslope side of Alpine on anything but Conquest, because I know it's going to be a carry-or-die kind of match (why people don't go anywhere else instead of trying to push straight up the enemy's firing line on Mt. Campmore, I'll never understand). Still, for drawing attention off the big hill, Conquest does the trick, and I don't cuss at my screen nearly as much as I do when it's that map and Skirmish or Assault. Alpine could still be fixed with a simple spawn point repositioning so that either Mt. Campmore is less attractive or both teams can get to it just as quickly, but I digress.

Conquest on Caustic breaks up the NASCAR a little bit, which is always a welcome change. Assault used to do that, too, before the turrets were removed. More poking and brawling, less "drive fast, turn left." The 'Mech-stopping ground clutter is still irritating.

Conquest on Therma... still winds up being decided in the pugzapper 9 times out of 10. People are just programmed to run straight for it. I had one game recently where my team didn't, but we just deathballed instead of detatching our faster 'Mechs to cap and it went bad anyway. Not a fan. I still vote for Therma just to see the reactions and savor the delicious tears of fools who can't manage their heat... even though fewer than half my configs can even shoot across the stupid caldera. I'm an *** like that.

Conquest on Bog... meh, no real change. It's still Bog, I still hate it. That map is the reason I drive mostly JJ 'Mechs anymore, and I wish it would go away or PGI would implement more destructible crap so that it would be less of a pain. Low visibility is something I can deal with. Low mobility makes me want to break things.

Now, my favorite combination, I've recently discovered, is Conquest on Tourmaline. Not that' Tourmaline is a bad map- it most definitely isn't. It's still one of the best maps in the game, but IMO Conquest makes it even better. The cap points are just placed well, and the map favors more dynamic matches in the first place, so it's sort of the perfect storm of conditions. I wasn't really a fan of Conquest before, but now I vote for that map+mode combo every time it's available.

[Tarogato]

I honestly can't remember the last time I voted on a mode other than Conquest. Maybe I sometimes vote for Assault when Conquest isn't available, but I always go Conquest. It's just nice to have a gamemode that splits people up sometimes. Well, splitting up and capping on Conquest is a bad strategy, but people still do it anyways, and I'm glad they do. I had a match yesterday where I was the only mech in the entire game that ever went to Theta on Terra Therma. I figured the usual "bring my larger force to Theta, stomp the enemy's smaller force and then steamroll the leftovers"... but nobody ever went. And it was a welcome turn of events.

Edited by Tarogato, 28 December 2015 - 09:33 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Conquest on Terra Derpa: Best conquest map of the game. (Tourmaline a close #2)
Conquest on Alpine: Third worst in the game (Frozen City and Caustic Valley are worse)

Why is Terra Derpa best at conquest? You get lance on lance action out of the gate and the group that deathballs loses by cap as long as the other team doesn't make the mistake to do the same. It is dynamic and a lot of fun. Tourmaline is close, but three cap points are a little too close to each other. Move Theta farther to the south side of the stargate, and you have it.

Why is Alpine 3rd worst? (and it is against some stiff competition from Viridian Bog and Mining Collective and Crimson Strait) Because it packed 3 of it's points too close to one another turning it into defacto skirmish. It USED to be the best when you scattered the cap points far out forcing lance on lance action and made it so big that an assault could only get to 2 points so positioning and strategy was very important. Revert the cap points to the way they were and Alpine becomes the best because it is also the coldest.

Why are Mining Collective and Viridian Bog bad? Simple, everything is too close. The maps are too small by 100% to be good conquest maps, just like Frozen City. Crimson Strait's sin is the same as Alpine Peaks, with 2 points right next to each other causing a skirmish in the usual places, but 3 of them are spaced far out so lights have a real task to do. The imbalance helps, but isn't great. It still doesn't deter deathballitis.

Caustic valley is not good because you can start with lance on lance, but all the points are too close, so everything devolves into a deathball brawl too quick, and weapons can generally range the entire map. Move the points some, and you have a better map. Forest Colony could use improvements, and is better purely because it's not the other maps. HPG manifold has chokepoint issues forcing the brawl in the basement. The team that does NOT do that, is the team that wins most times.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 December 2015 - 10:04 PM.

[1Grimbane]

yep.... conquest on alpine is always a good time, makes much better use of the space as well on that map in particular, skirmish on alpine always feels so lonely. if possible i vote the alpine conquest ombo everytime

Edited by 1Grimbane, 28 December 2015 - 10:09 PM.

[JaxRiot]

Conquest is my favorite. I used to queue for only Conquest back when that was a thing.

Sadly I hardly ever get to play Conquest any more and have to play Frozen City almost constantly.

I bet I played over 30 matches today and I seen Canyon twice, Caustic once, Alpine once, Tourmaline twice and Bog twice..

All of the rest were Frozen City.

Even though I did get to play Conquest a few times, I do miss the old days when I didnt have to play Frozen City/Skirmish constantly

Sure the wait was a bit longer, but it was worth it to be able to play the mode I actually enjoyed and and was able to play it on all of the maps.

I think I would prefer to just have totally random matches than what we have now

Edited by JaxRiot, 28 December 2015 - 11:43 PM.

[Setun]

The only time I get excited for Alpine Peaks is when Conquest is involved. It's so much more brutal and brawly!

[Kotzi]

Conquest 90% fight for Theta.

[Funky Bacon]

I love playing Conquest on Alpine.

[Satan n stuff]

Fleeb the Mad, on 28 December 2015 - 08:55 PM, said:

who chooses to play conquest? Maniacs? Masochists?

People who understand that conquest has a much shorter soft time limit and a cbill bonus compared to every other game mode, meaning it is the best game mode by far for earning

[adamts01]

You've listed the single good thing about conquest. Honestly, If there was a chance in hell to join a unit and actually get matches on my server, I wouldn't mind the mode. But pugs run around more puggish than ever when conquest is picked. And half the time, my team actually starts to hide and camp! Sorry, 4/5 Conquest matches I'm hitting override and going YOLO.

[ExplicitContent]

PS WrathOfDeadguy, on 28 December 2015 - 09:28 PM, said:

Conquest on Bog... meh, no real change. It's still ..,and I wish it would go away or PGI would implement more destructible crap so that it would be less of a pain. Low visibility is something I can deal with. Low mobility makes me want to break things.
.

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[Voq]

I try to argue this every time I see someone whining that Conquest was picked. It makes matches that much more dynamic.
Sometimes people just go for kills, but the nodes give them reason to fight in different locations using alternate strategies.
The matches just end up so much more engaging.