33 replies to this topic

[Psyden]

I am a new player, so I haven't had a real chance to buy many clan mechs. Heck, I only have the Shadow Cat, a much beloved mech in all the other MechWarrior games. Unfortunately, the Shadow Cat in MWO makes me very, very sad.

However, I digress.

Has anyone else experienced a great imbalance while playing Clan Wars? I've been experiencing crushing defeats in virtually every drop. At best, the ration tends towards 2 clan mechs downed for a IS mech. At worst, upwards and beyond 5 to 1 losses.

I am struggling to find out why, too. Lore-wise, at least, the Clans are supposed to be good. We can see that in the tonnage gap imposed on drops. On the whole, Clan-Tech is supposed to be light than it's IS equivalent. We see this in the light mechs and correspondingly light payload capacity.

I am by no means saying that Clanner tech should be overwhelmingly superior to IS. Not in the least. After all, it is no fun when one side has an overwhelming advantage over the other, right?

But one look at the IS Map will tell you that there is something wrong here. As a whole, the House forces are dominating the clans. Even the least of the Houses is doing as good, if not better than, the greatest of the Clans.

Is it because the most skilled players are part of the Inner Sphere? Do Inner Sphere players tend to go in groups more often, so they are better coordinated? If it is one of these, then there is little to be done. However, if it is because IS Tech is over-buffed, or if Clan-Tech is over-nerfed, there is an obvious solution.

[Mcgral18]

Many of the good factions swapped to IS after Tukkayyid (damn the spelling)

Clam Trials are worse for the most part, almost exclusively being STOCK mechs, with a handful of decent, while EVERY Sphere option are updated builds (none being stock).
That explains why some PUG VS PUG drops of new Steam Tier 5 players would be in the favour of the Sphere.

As for the rest of it...I really don't care about CW. It doesn't earn me any more than PUG drops, and if I get saddled with Bads, I'm stuck with a Roflestopm that might last a half hour. In the PUG LIFE, that only lasts 5-10 minutes.

Then there's the other issue of CW...what's the point? CW1 we had 26 planets to our faction's name. Come Tukkayid, we got first place in Smoke Jags and then...everything was reset. No more counter, no reminder of what we had aside from a small 1st place banner cockpit item.
There's nothing to gain over PUG matches.

Grinding PUGs for a half hour at a time isn't as fun as just shooting robots who have a chance to fight back.

[Amsro]

The overall balance of mechs is closer then it has ever been.

CW is very sensitive to groups switching factions, large groups can sway CW with sheer numbers alone.

The current version of CW is also coming to an end, with CW 3 on it's way soon.

Edited by Amsro, 29 December 2015 - 05:23 PM.

[0bsidion]

Well, it's a symptom of a lot of different issues. The main one being Clan tech doesn't work well in multiplayer games. Especially in games where the average player expects parity between IS and Clans which directly contradicts lore.

[Mystere]

Amsro, on 29 December 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

The overall balance of mechs is closer then it has ever been for a generic robot shooter.

FTFY.

[Wintersdark]

Leaving bittervets disgruntlement aside.

Clan vs. IS balance is close now. Not perfect, but close enough that it doesn't play a significant role in match outcome.

I've been pugging CW today (as Clan) and in PUG vs. PUG matches, we've lost a lot. But in every one of those matches, we've lost due to a lack of teamwork entirely, not due to mech imbalance. Oh, people have claimed in those matches it was because our Clan mechs sucked, but it didn't stop me from getting between 1/3 and 1/2 of our treams kills in every match, and I'm not a comp player by any means. Our mechs were fine. The opposing teams were no better really, in terms of individual Mechwarrior skill. We (and I'm involved in this) lost because we were bad.

Not bad at shooting stompy robots. Bad at teamwork.

You can't carry or be carried in CW. It doesn't matter if you've got a "ringer.". You MUST work together, have a plan - any plan - and carry it out. You can't just view it as one ongoing random solo queue match, or you will lose.

In CW, mechs and even player skill matters way, way less than teamwork.

Edited by Wintersdark, 29 December 2015 - 06:09 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 29 December 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

FTFY.

Good thing MWO is Shooty Stompy Robots, so it fits perfectly.

[Deathlike]

Shadowcat is a Sadcat. Full stop. Don't judge Clan Mechs based on that (the Shadowcat, like certain omnimechs, are not effective based on omnimech rules).

If people focused more on working together, than tech, you would actually have a better shot at winning games.

Teamwork since day 1 is OP. Please remember that.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 December 2015 - 06:11 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Amsro, on 29 December 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

The overall balance of mechs is closer then it has ever been.

CW is very sensitive to groups switching factions, large groups can sway CW with sheer numbers alone.

The current version of CW is also coming to an end, with CW 3 on it's way soon.

Large groups sway CW via numbers, and the fact that large groups have teamwork, even if they are bad otherwise.

Thus, the side with the most large groups almost always wins.

[Psyden]

Price doesn't help. Clan mechs are, on average, 2-3 times as expensive as the IS, except for the lights, where the price difference is greater. This makes building up a Clanner drop group for CW even harder for new people, but I am sure that once you are well situated in the game, this becomes less of a problem.

However, I understand that while the sticker price it high, the omni-pod design means that you are actually buying the ability to swap every part but the CT, which, I think, more than covers the cost. This does mean that new Clanners are more reliant on the loaners. So, maybe an update of the loaners is necessarily?

Also, I am well aware that the Shadow Cat is a shadow of what it was in other games. It is just my misfortune to have purchased that instead of another, better mech. My current DropShip wish list are 2 Timberwolves, a Hellbringer, and an Adder. After getting burned on the Shadowkitty, I did research on mechs, and found out that the Shadow Cat is an outlyier. Until I can work up the money to get them, I am stuck with the loaners.

But, knowing that it is more the player base and less any issue with mech balancing, I think I will stick with the Clanners for a bit longer. Sure, there is little that can be done, dev-side, for the player base in each side, but with a bit of effort, I think I might be able to get a couple of good runs out of it. It might be like herding cats, but that, too, can be done with enough work, right?

[MechaBattler]

Psyden, on 29 December 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

Price doesn't help. Clan mechs are, on average, 2-3 times as expensive as the IS, except for the lights, where the price difference is greater. This makes building up a Clanner drop group for CW even harder for new people, but I am sure that once you are well situated in the game, this becomes less of a problem.

However, I understand that while the sticker price it high, the omni-pod design means that you are actually buying the ability to swap every part but the CT, which, I think, more than covers the cost. This does mean that new Clanners are more reliant on the loaners. So, maybe an update of the loaners is necessarily?

Also, I am well aware that the Shadow Cat is a shadow of what it was in other games. It is just my misfortune to have purchased that instead of another, better mech. My current DropShip wish list are 2 Timberwolves, a Hellbringer, and an Adder. After getting burned on the Shadowkitty, I did research on mechs, and found out that the Shadow Cat is an outlyier. Until I can work up the money to get them, I am stuck with the loaners.

But, knowing that it is more the player base and less any issue with mech balancing, I think I will stick with the Clanners for a bit longer. Sure, there is little that can be done, dev-side, for the player base in each side, but with a bit of effort, I think I might be able to get a couple of good runs out of it. It might be like herding cats, but that, too, can be done with enough work, right?

A big part of the price difference is due to every Clan mech having XL engines. Not sure if they also charge them for all the CASE that's built in.

[crustydog]

In my opinion, Clan vrs IS tech was in rough balance before the patch. I always scored better in my IS gear in CW - like 500 dmg better average per match. Now, after the patch, in my opinion the IS has a huge advantage over the Clans. You can still win as a Clan player, but you need to use skill to offset the numerous disadvantages that now exist in Clan tech. You can, to a certain extent, build around the nerfs - but this highly limits your options for effective builds.

[Wolfways]

Psyden, on 29 December 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Has anyone else experienced a great imbalance while playing Clan Wars? I've been experiencing crushing defeats in virtually every drop. At best, the ration tends towards 2 clan mechs downed for a IS mech. At worst, upwards and beyond 5 to 1 losses.

That's normal. Get used to it.

[Leggin Ho]

Balance is close, tonnage limits in CW are stupid and need to be scaled back to 240 for both factions, the ability to bring a assault and 3 heavies, or 2 assaults a heavy and light, or 4 heavies in a drop is just stupid.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 29 December 2015 - 06:09 PM, said:

Good thing MWO is Shooty Stompy Robots, so it fits perfectly.

And which is why a good chunk of BattleTech and Mechwarrior fans have not only left in disgust but also continuously hound PGI in other game forums.

[Zolaz]

What can you say ... PGI are masters at balancing. I think they have won this award like 3 years in a row.

[Karmen Baric]

[AssaultPig]

tonnage ought to be lower than 240 if anything; getting mediums back in the field in a real way would make CW a lot more interesting. 3x 65 tonner plus a throwaway mech isn't a great thing for the mode imo.

but clan vs. IS balance seems, for the moment, to be pretty decent

[xe N on]

Psyden, on 29 December 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

Price doesn't help. Clan mechs are, on average, 2-3 times as expensive as the IS, except for the lights, where the price difference is greater.

This is untrue. Clan mech have higher initial buying cost but come next to fully equipped with all upgrades like double heat sinks, endo structure and/or ferro fiberous armor and XL-engine.

Buying an IS mech with equal equipment and upgrades will result in almost the same cost.

Next to all IS basis mechs need to be ugraded first to be even usefull at a minimum level. Running a cheap IS mechs in standard configuration withoutEndo/Ferro or double heat sink upgrades will cause severe frustration, not only to you but also to your team mates.

Not all mechs are equally strong. There are huge gaps, not only between IS and Clan mechs but also between IS/IS and Clan/Clan mechs. Shadowcat is one of the weaker clan mechs. Buy 3x Stormcrow instead. I run SCR frequently even as IS fan boy because it is simply one of the best medium mech in game.

If you are an beginner you should not even think about playing CW. You are far to inexperienced to compete with elite PUG players or even competetive premade groups. A group of competetive premade player could whipe a PUG beginner group in Timberwolfs by just using Locusts exclusivly.

This is not an mmorpg but a shooter. Reaction, movement and aiming skill matters alot.

Edited by xe N on, 30 December 2015 - 03:10 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Leggin Ho, on 29 December 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

Balance is close, tonnage limits in CW are stupid and need to be scaled back to 240 for both factions, the ability to bring a assault and 3 heavies, or 2 assaults a heavy and light, or 4 heavies in a drop is just stupid.

This, or for IS 2 assaults/2meds (Battlemaster/Stalker + 2 blackjacks). Most players will only own one of a variant while the more competitive players may own two of the same variant, but the player still had to purchase 2 other different variants to elite/master them. Where as on the Clan side the players would also purchase 3 different variants to Elite/Master them but then by purchasing Omni pods at a fraction of a mech, equip the omni the same.

Just a note that the CW deck weight previously was IS 250-ton vs Clan 240-ton, then changed to IS 265-ton vs Clan 250-ton, that was changed to 255-ton around 12-28-15. And several of the major merc units also switched from Clan to IS, who know how to take advantage of the weight increase, as well as many other IS players. With that, as previously noted there is a huge population difference after the last reset.

Prior to the Steam Launch the map looked a lot different as the mercs were running as Clanners, with CJF and CW taking out parts of Lyran Commonwealth, Draconis Combine, FRR, portions of FWL, CC and Federated States. CW had Terra surrounded.

As of December 6, 2015
http://mwomercs.com/...-cw-experience/



Just to note, technically all units are merc units and all players are mercs with the current game settings. Though many players consider themselves loyalists of their particular faction, and there is a loyalist contract, it is still a contract that can be broken. Loyalist gain loyalty points at a slightly faster rate but without the benefits of others switching factions, as there are faction gains, from GXP, MC, Mechbays, C-Bills, other items as a player levels up in rank for each faction, keeping their unit names on faction planets they left until retaken, all the while not being penalized by losing said planets nor any type of negative faction loyalty deductions from fighting against their former faction, either major (Clan vs IS) or minor (Davion vs Kurita).

And there is no population restriction in place. PGI had previously increased or decreased the amount of loyalty points to be earned, but the only consequence in CW is breaking a contract early. Sorta like the Heat Scale, no real consequences til a mech hits or excess 100% (had to get that in there!!!)

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 30 December 2015 - 05:00 AM.