50 replies to this topic

[s0da72]

I'm not a big fan of the how the current U/Ac's jam mechanic works. It seems to jam all the time when in combat. I would rather see it only add an additional half-second to a second to the cool down for the next shot after a jam.

[Khobai]

Here's the formula for calculating UAC dps:

DPS = (2-J)*D/((1-J/2)*C+J*U)

D = damage
J = jam rate
C = cooldown
U = 5 seconds

CUAC2 = 2.72 dps
CUAC20 = 8.12 dps

Someone double check my math^

The CUAC2 should be doing around ~4.0 dps (because a standard AC2 does ~3.0 dps). So its jam rate is definitely set way too high. It needs to be lowered from 14% to 7%-8%.

Source:
http://mwomercs.com/...amage-analysis/

Edited by Khobai, 31 December 2015 - 02:10 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Uac2 does more dps and has less dph than ac 20. At the same time you can boat 2 for the weight of 1 ac20.

The jam rate is fine.

[Monkey Lover]

Khobai, on 31 December 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

Here's the formula for calculating UAC dps:

DPS = (2-J)*D/((1-J/2)*C+J*U)

D = damage
J = jam rate
C = cooldown
U = 5 seconds

CUAC2 = 1.36 dps
CUAC20 = 8.25 dps

The CUAC2 should be doing at least 4.0 dps (since a regular AC2 does ~3.0 dps). So its jam rate is definitely set too high.

A 5 ton weapon with 800m range doing 4 dps? Lol no thanks I like ttk the way it is now.

[Bobzilla]

Never mind OP's comparison, the main takeaway is double tap on CUac2 actually does less dmg than not double tapping. It's broken.

[Khobai]

Quote

A 5 ton weapon with 800m range doing 4 dps? Lol no thanks I like ttk the way it is now.

The standard AC/2 does 3 dps
So the CUAC/2 should do more than 3 dps (4 dps is entirely reasonable)

The whole point of an ultra autocannon is that it does higher dps than a standard autocannon. At the cost of more heat and being unreliable/inconsistent due to jamming.

Quote

Uac2 does more dps and has less dph than ac 20. At the same time you can boat 2 for the weight of 1 ac20.

The jam rate is fine.

No the jam rate is definitely not fine. The weapon does more dps firing in non-ultra mode than it does in ultra mode. It's inherently broken.

Edited by Khobai, 31 December 2015 - 11:14 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Deathlike, on 31 December 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Expect less.

That sounds about right.

Yeah, I'm a Checkerboard Knight. I champion the things they do right, lambast those who make false claims and dirty insults, and complain loudly about things they do painfully wrong.

There are myriad small fixes that would increase consumer satisfaction while requiring minimal programmer effort.

Adjusting jam rates/durations
LBX spread
Flamer DPS
MachineGun COF
Increasing incline effect minimum height threshold (preventing Pebbles of SteelSteel effect)
Increasing AC/2 range

And there are more complex things they did wrong, which should have been done right:
Heat scale penalties
Component-specific quirks instead of total-body quirks
Ghost heat linkages (6ML + 2LL = no GH?!)
ECM (incorrectly calling Angel ECM "Guardian ECM" in the game files)

--------------

However, this thread is about UAC jams and durations. Chance and duration should be smaller with DPS weapons, and higher with Impulse weapon. This is almost indisputable.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 31 December 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Prosperity Park, on 31 December 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

My last sentence says I am not seeking parity.

Also, I think that making the comparison that shows UAC/2 jamming 8x harder is a very good comparison. It shows how a flat duration and a flat chance across all UAC platforms is a poor choice.



Sometimes you need to compare apples to oranges if they are served in the same fruit basket.

I read your last paragraph. I get it. The point is your one measure of,effectiveness, drawn from an oversimplification is not the holistic approach to the problem of uac2 effectiveness, nor even the right measure to compare. So we can agree to disagree on that I suppose. I just feel yer going the wrong road to prove uac2 need help or what help they need.

As for the final sentence, I laughed. I know yer trying to sound zen there PP (and no harm in that) but that makes zero sense. No one ever needs to compare fruit necause they are seved in the same fruit basket, for any reason. You just eat what you like and move on.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Bobzilla, on 31 December 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Never mind OP's comparison, the main takeaway is double tap on CUac2 actually does less dmg than not double tapping. It's broken.

I used the UAC/20 vs UAC/2 as an example of how the absence of jam scaling places weapons out of sync with the intended game balance.

Yes, you can compare doubletap to non-double tap, but then you lose a point of interest. The impulse weapons (UAC/20 for example) CAN have allowable reduced DPS when jamming over time, and it mightt be okay as long as a single double tap happens more than. 50% of the time. Impulse weapons are not meant for sustained DPS. However, DPS weapons suchbas the UAC/2 experience an inflated jamming risk due to the need for repeated firing instances, and the fact that a single jam ameliorates many firing chances.

It's that last fact that I wanted to bring to light. The synergistic combination of more jams and more shots blocked by a single jam.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 31 December 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Monkey Lover, on 31 December 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

A 5 ton weapon with 800m range doing 4 dps? Lol no thanks I like ttk the way it is now.

The AC2 used to do 4 DPS 100% of the time.

It was still terrible then.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 31 December 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm a Checkerboard Knight. I champion the things they do right, lambast those who make false claims and dirty insults, and complain loudly about things they do painfully wrong.

There are myriad small fixes that would increase consumer satisfaction while requiring minimal programmer effort.

Adjusting jam rates/durations
LBX spread
Flamer DPS
MachineGun COF
Increasing incline effect minimum height threshold (preventing Pebbles of SteelSteel effect)
Increasing AC/2 range

And there are more complex things they did wrong, which should have been done right:
Heat scale penalties
Component-specific quirks instead of total-body quirks
Ghost heat linkages (6ML + 2LL = no GH?!)
ECM (incorrectly calling Angel ECM "Guardian ECM" in the game files)

--------------

However, this thread is about UAC jams and durations. Chance and duration should be smaller with DPS weapons, and higher with Impulse weapon. This is almost indisputable.

Well, to keep it simple... UAC jam is supposed to "scale" with the bigger dakka variants.

If Jam was unified in such a way where say the jam time is 4x the time for the cooldown (not saying this is optimal, but just for the sake of argument), then we can properly "normalize" risk-reward for said weapons.

It's obvious (except for one man) that jam cooldown for the CUAC2 is abnormally high for what you're committing to its abilities.

Edit:
An idea of what I'm saying...

CUAC2 - 1.5s jam
CUAC5 - 3.3s jam
CUAC10 - 5s jam
CUAC20 - 6s jam

The jam time is approximately 2x the normal cooldown, with the exception of the CUAC20 (it's only 1.5x).

That should be the starting point of where jam changes should be made.

Edited by Deathlike, 31 December 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Khobai, on 31 December 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

The standard AC/2 does 3 dps
So the CUAC/2 should do more than 3 dps (4 dps is entirely reasonable)

The whole point of an ultra autocannon is that it does higher dps than a standard autocannon. At the cost of more heat and being unreliable/inconsistent due to jamming.



No the jam rate is definitely not fine. The weapon does more dps firing in non-ultra mode than it does in ultra mode. It's inherently broken.

Why do you think the dps should be more than any other weapon in the game? Don't you think this will cause some balance issues?

If you want to decrease the jam range for exchange of lower damage per shot that would be fine with me.

[Khobai]

Quote

I just feel yer going the wrong road to prove uac2 need help or what help they need.

I provided the mathematical formula for determining UAC dps.

Certainly that should be convincing evidence that the CUAC2 does in fact need help.

Reducing the jamming chance would buff its dps to where it needs to be.

Quote

Why do you think the dps should be more than any other weapon in the game? Don't you think this will cause some balance issues?

How is it more dps than any other weapon in the game?

The CUAC20 does 8.12 dps

If two CUAC2s weigh about the same as one CUAC20 then each CUAC2 doing 4 dps is perfectly fine.

The x2 CUAC2s would also generate significantly more heat per damage than the CUAC20 which balances out the range difference.

So no I dont see any potential balance problems.

Quote

If you want to decrease the jam range for exchange of lower damage per shot that would be fine with me

Theres no need to lower the damage per shot. Again, 4 dps is perfectly acceptable for the CUAC2.

Edited by Khobai, 31 December 2015 - 02:11 PM.

[Moldur]

Monkey Lover, on 31 December 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

Why do you think the dps should be more than any other weapon in the game? Don't you think this will cause some balance issues?

If you want to decrease the jam range for exchange of lower damage per shot that would be fine with me.

Are you saying that the dps on a regular A/C 2 is causing balance issues?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Deathlike, on 31 December 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Well, to keep it simple... UAC jam is supposed to "scale" with the bigger dakka variants.

If Jam was unified in such a way where say the jam time is 4x the time for the cooldown (not saying this is optimal, but just for the sake of argument), then we can properly "normalize" risk-reward for said weapons.

It's obvious (except for one man) that jam cooldown for the CUAC2 is abnormally high for what you're committing to its abilities.

Yup. It's that scaling normalization that is completely absent.

Rember in Closed Beta when the AC/2 had the same firing rate as the AC/20? We are still there with UAC jam calculations.

[Monkey Lover]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

The AC2 used to do 4 DPS 100% of the time.

It was still terrible then.

We don't have ghost heat anymore. I guess we can bring ghost heat bad if you want.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 31 December 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Yup. It's that scaling normalization that is completely absent.

Rember in Closed Beta when the AC/2 had the same firing rate as the AC/20? We are still there with UAC jam calculations.

I added to my original post a better jam time listing-ideal.

I wasn't here for Closed Beta, but if that were the case... I guess people truly do ignore our balance master's ideas of poor balance.

[Mcgral18]

Monkey Lover, on 31 December 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

We don't have ghost heat anymore. I guess we can bring ghost heat bad if you want.

There wasn't Ghost Heat back then either.

It was still a bad weapon.

[Monkey Lover]

Khobai, on 31 December 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

I provided the mathematical formula for determining UAC dps.

Certainly that should be convincing evidence that the CUAC2 does in fact need help.

Reducing the jamming chance from 14% to 6%-7% would buff its dps to where it needs to be.



How is it more dps than any other weapon in the game?

The CUAC20 does 8.25 dps

If two CUAC2s weigh about the same as one CUAC20 then each CUAC2 doing 4 dps is perfectly fine.

Other weapons as in srm and lasers. Would would you bring an ac20 at 12 tons when you can get the same dps with two uacs2 have lots more range and save 2 tons.

Moldur, on 31 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Are you saying that the dps on a regular A/C 2 is causing balance issues?

I said it would if you buff them to much. There are too many mechs that can boat 4 to 6 of them. If it was only 1 it wouldn't matter much.

[Deathlike]

Monkey Lover, on 31 December 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

Other weapons as in srm and lasers. Would would you bring an ac20 at 12 tons when you can get the same dps with two uacs2 have lots more range and save 2 tons.





I said it would if you buff them to much. There are too many mechs that can boat 4 to 6 of them. If it was only 1 it wouldn't matter much.

AC2s were never really a threat in the game. AT BEST, they were a nuisance (like LRMs, but at least it's not LRMs). At worst, they tickle mechs (just not MG levels of tickling).