29 replies to this topic

[Moldur]

Artemis srm 24 on the iic works flawlessly for me. It's one of my favorite builds at the moment. It kills stuff really well, and srms are not usually my cup of tea.

[VinJade]

@ PP
you do realize many people(mostly clan players) want 12 Vs 8 thus I was talking about calling me a loremonger which I am by no means one so yes I had every right to bring that up because you opened the door to that.

So don't blame me for something you left yourself open to.

[Gorgo7]

VinJade

12 vs. 8 will never work.

In Pug landia you must go with 12 vs. 12. You could do Clan vs clan only and IS vs. IS only for balance.

Solaris for Clan vs. IS, single, multiple and team.

CW Unnerf everything.
4 drops of 240 tons (IS)
vs,
3 drops of 180 tons (Clan)

Problem solved.
No one seems willing to discuss this (radical) plan of mine. I expect that it is too terrifying in concept...

[Deathlike]

VinJade, on 31 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

@ PP
you do realize many people(mostly clan players) want 12 Vs 8 thus I was talking about calling me a loremonger which I am by no means one so yes I had every right to bring that up because you opened the door to that.

So don't blame me for something you left yourself open to.

Actually, they wanted 12v10.

The problem primarily stems with the solo queues and balance "impressions".

For a multiplayer game, even numbers on both sides are paramount... otherwise people will goto a side with the perceived balance advantage.

Games like Starcraft.. where every faction is different.. is played to the entire notion that still in a 1v1 scenario that each side having different types of units (multiple smaller units vs bigger stronger/more expensive units) can be balanced.

For an FPS-ish game though, having a disproportionate # of players per team is totally counter to that notion of balance... whether you realize that or not.

Imagine all games played with uneven teams.... it becomes extraordinarily difficult to balance.

Edited by Deathlike, 31 December 2015 - 04:09 PM.

[VinJade]

@ deathlike, that was a goof on my part, but still like you & G7 stated it couldn't and wouldn't work.

on a side note I sometimes forget that Clans use Stars(five mechs) not Lances(four mechs).

[Khobai]

Quote

Mass means nothing. remember Clan tech is meant to be better & you playing a jade turkey

which would make sense if the game was 12v10

But the game is 12v12. clan tech cant be better. or the game ends up not being balanced.

the only way 12v12 works is if IS tech and clan tech are equal... which means when an IS srm weighs twice as much as a clan srm it needs to be better than the clan srm, otherwise theres no equality between the two.

Edited by Khobai, 31 December 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[Deathlike]

VinJade, on 31 December 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

@ deathlike, that was a goof on my part, but still like you & G7 stated it couldn't and wouldn't work.

on a side note I sometimes forget that Clans use Stars(five mechs) not Lances(four mechs).

Well, it's not even really the point.

I'm pretty much saying it's difficult either way if we go "hardcore lore" on things.

Given our balance overlord's track record... he would make both sides imbalance at a time... oh wait...

In theory... assuming things were all equal (skill and otherwise), 12 players technically "should" have an advantage over 10 players as numbers can matter. Although, in some CW situations... you can occasionally carry 1 less player and his presence wouldn't be needed... but in CW, the skill disparity is often much greater (mostly due to lack of coordination/teamwork above all else).

If the 10 mechs had "stronger tech", how would you know that be more/less imbalanced/balanced based on any particular tweak?

Unlike tabletop where only YOU control ONE army vs the opponent that controls ONE army, these rules totally break down hard in a multiplayer game.

That's what makes this virtually impossible, unless you're some master of balance (in which our current one would only dream to scream this up royally).

Edited by Deathlike, 31 December 2015 - 04:36 PM.

[VinJade]

@Khobai
well also another reason 12 v 10 wouldn't work is because both sides have access to clan tech(lore and all) throwing off the balance as well.

I still don't think they should make the Std or even SSRMs stronger or weaker than their clan counter parts as they gain nor lose damage than the other and as you said before the only diff is their weight.

The clanners should be allow to still have some things for themselves otherwise you might as well remove everything and just make it all IS and get rid of clans all together because there is no way to balance without giving the advantages to the IS.

remember the hefty nerf they did to the Timber wolf and the outrage of it because they more or less 'weakened' the mech (as some clanners had more or less stated)?

There is no way to make everyone happy as there will always be grumbling from one side or the other.

And SRMs are prime example of this.

@Deathlike
That is very true.

however the more powerful clan tech was why it was balanced when you see IS have more 'bodies' which could give them a greater chance to win.

however that would require everyone working as a team.

Edited by VinJade, 31 December 2015 - 04:40 PM.

[Deathlike]

VinJade, on 31 December 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

@Khobai
well also another reason 12 v 10 wouldn't work is because both sides have access to clan tech(lore and all) throwing off the balance as well.

I still don't think they should make the Std or even SSRMs stronger or weaker than their clan counter parts as they gain nor lose damage than the other and as you said before the only diff is their weight.

The clanners should be allow to still have some things for themselves otherwise you might as well remove everything and just make it all IS and get rid of clans all together because there is no way to balance without giving the advantages to the IS.

remember the hefty nerf they did to the Timber wolf and the outrage of it because they more or less 'weakened' the mech (as some clanners had more or less stated)?

There is no way to make everyone happy as there will always be grumbling from one side or the other.

And SRMs are prime example of this.

@Deathlike
That is very true.

however the more powerful clan tech was why it was balanced when you see IS have more 'bodies' which could give them a greater chance to win.

however that would require everyone working as a team.

I don't want to talk about 12v10... it's simply a bad idea.

Balancing SRMs is infinitely easier however.

The best way to balance them is the obvious thing... "For balance, Corerule ignore."

The inherent advantages of Clan SRMs being tonnage (because changing weight/slot values would amount to anarchy/heresy), the simple way is to improve IS SRMs for the tonnage spent. This implies the following would have to be tweaked...

Damage per missile (increase)
Cooldown (decrease it to be able to do more damage often... or increase it if the damage per missile is great enough)
Spread (decrease)
Heat (decrease, if necessary)
Velocity (increase)

There may be others, but these off the top of my head can be changed in any combination so that the tonnage spent on IS SRMs are not totally inferior to the Clan SRM tonnage savings.

Differentiating the weapons w/o breaking them is entirely possible for a 1v1 purpose.

Edited by Deathlike, 31 December 2015 - 04:46 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Prosperity Park, on 31 December 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

There is no 12v8 in Mechwarrior: Online.
Try to stay within the scope of this game when discussing Clan vs IS balance.

There's not really much lore in this game (MWO) so I'm not sure why he's bringing that up.