85 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Lupis Volk, on 05 January 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

As i said in another alpine thread. No one dares to leave Mount Candy and why should they? On 2 out of 3 game modes it's a fortress. You can't get sniped from the front and if anyone went to your rear you'd see them. You have no real way to give the team camping on Mount Candy a reason to up and leave.

We have two issues with the map in it's current state.

Mount Candy and Spawns.

Meh! Doing what the old daimyos of feudal Japan did -- send ninja assassins -- seems to make the enemy move from their so-called "fortress" when they find themselves at a numerical disadvantage. It's either that or they lose.

spectralthundr, on 05 January 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

You don't need to own Candy mountain on Alpine you just need to play smart ...

And therein lies the problem. Many people do not seem to play smart.

TexAce, on 05 January 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

And besides, you just have to kill ONE enemy mech to force the team in the caldera to come out. Its that easy.

Assassins. They are useful even in video games.

Edited by Mystere, 05 January 2016 - 03:17 PM.

[Thunder Child]

Deleting this map is bad and you should feel bad for suggesting it.

The map is perfectly playable as it is, you just need to speak up at the start of the match, tell the team what it is doing, and pull people away from Mount Tryhard.

I've had amazing matches that have had nothing to do with claiming Mount Tryhard.

Two that immediately spring to mind are a pair of skirmish matches.
One of them, I said "Push hard 5 Line to catch their Assaults and we win!", and charged off in my Timberwolf (Super Stock, btw). My Lance followed, being good little puggles. The other two lances (with one mech being the exception) followed.
The exception scaled Mount Tryhard, planted his flag, and got eviscerated. He then qq'd all over the All Chat.
Meanwhile, me and another Timber caught the enemy Assaults as they started the climb. Two Assaults down from Rear CT Coring, and two more damaged, and the Medium and Light Lance showed up. With their help, the last Assault and a Heavy drop, and we start eliminating the lights that came back to help. We pull back into the gully in the H5/I5/I6 area, drawing their mediums and heavies into us, and then push over the ridge into the Brawl. Our Assaults then show up from behind the enemy lines, and it's GG. I got dropped at the very start of that last push, but the team won, and it was a solid victory.

The other epic match where we didn't claim Candy Mountain, someone took lead, and told the Lights to go make noise in H7. The rest of us were told to climb H12/I12, and stay hidden. We did. When the lights gave us the cue, we poured up onto the ridge and pumped fire into the enemy teams rear armor. We'd dropped 6 of them before they figured out we were on the opposite ridge.

These are just two examples of how NOT doing the expected can claim an easy win on Alpine. It is an amazing map. People just need to break out of the desperate urgent need to Climb Mount Tryhard.

Edited by Thunder Child, 05 January 2016 - 03:49 PM.

[Khobai]

The reality is any large map that always funnels players to the same small area is poorly designed. Its not designed with a proper element of flow.

Alpine is a bad map period.

Does alpine need to be deleted. No thats stupid. Why get rid of a map we already have?

But should the flow problems on Alpine be addressed? Definitely.


Even something as simple as putting a tunnel system underneath the mountain could help alleviate the flow problems.


HPG is an example of a map with good flow. The map flows well around the central platform and theres the basement area which allows teams to cross the map without being shot by mechs on top of the center platform. The result is you get pretty dynamic matches where fighting can happen almost anywhere on the map.

So adding a tunnel system underneath the mountain in alpine could very well have the same effect on alpine as the basement area in HPG. It could improve flow and make combat more dynamic and less about both teams fighting in same static area.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2016 - 04:24 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Well they essentially deleted LRMs from MWO because players couldn't learn to not walk into missile alleys so why not delete Alpine since players can't learn how to play it either?

Alpine is so easy to beat. You just recognize whether you have the H9 Hill or the other team does. If the other team is clustered there you just don't go to them. Instead you drag them into the open somewhere they can't shoot down on you. If it's Assault you could even cap the base.

No, no. Too much greatness has been deleted from MWO already because players were too busy to learn something new. Alpine is actually different each time I play it now. It's good.

My latest gripe is the new players who think River City D-4, upper city is some fortress you can hold when it is really a trap you get surrounded and flanked in. It's completely open to any pot-shot from anywhere on the map.

[Khobai]

Quote

My latest gripe is the new players who think River City D-4, upper city is some fortress you can hold when it is really a trap you get surrounded and flanked in. It's completely open to any pot-shot from anywhere on the map.

If youre gonna defend there you might as well just defend at C-3. You cant be pot shotted and theres a nice wide stretch of open area where you can fire on any enemy mechs coming through the chokepoint.

[FitzSimmons]

+1 for the Alpine hate.

The tactics can actually be fun on this map (conquest is playable), but it's the only map that completely neuters short-range builds. You either have to push it and risk a *very* early death or you have to be patient to the level where you're just sitting in cover til the final stages when the game has already been decided. Even Boreal Vault is more friendly to short range builds.

[DoomBringer595]

MrMadguy, on 05 January 2016 - 12:12 AM, said:

Ok, may be Alpine should stay, but then the whole purpose of deleting it now - is to fix it. Because keeping it without fixing - is nonsense, as it's the most unbalanced map in whole game. Team, that is spawned at higher side of the Candy Mountain - has ultimate advantage and if they are not noobs and know, what to do - they'll stomp other team in 99% cases.

This advantage - is direct way to Gold Star. It takes 5 minutes (1/3 of maximum match duration) for Assaults to regroup with their team. Assaults from higher team can support their team, while Assaults from lower team have to play WalkWarrior Online for the whole 5 minutes. Attacking Gold Star from the left for lower team - is suicide, cuz they will be stomped via fire from the ridge, while they will be at open space.

Hiding somewhere at the map and waiting for other team to come - is wasting time. If it takes 5 minutes to get to Candy Mountain, then it would take 10 minutes to get to other team, if it would hide at spawns or somewhere else. Having disadvantage - is better, then just wasting time, cuz it's better to die fast and quit this unbalanced map as fast as possible.

I got sick of this map and if it won't be deleted at patch, mentioned before - I will refuse to play it and will quit every time, some trolls will vote for it. And I don't care about COC, because when map is terribly unbalanced - then it's devs' fault, not mine. Being forced to play at unbalanced map and having strong disadvantage - is nonsense. Banning me for refusing to play chess with only half of chessmen on the chessboard? Well, it will tell us, how much PGI actually cares about this game and their playerbase.

P. S. Therma have to be next. Telling me "adapt", "L2P noob", etc. - is BS. I liked all maps in this game, when I was noob. Only when I got experienced enough, I realized, how terrible and unbalanced some maps are. So. Only noobs can like terrible maps, like Alpine and Therma - the worst two maps in a game. It's you, who should "L2P". "Adapting"? I'm not masochist to adapt for pain, sorry.

BRAVO WELL SAID

[smokefield]

this need to be quoted on each page so ppl remember :

Quote

1) We need more maps not less 2) cries of massive advantage are BS because I have won and lost from all spawn points 3) just because most players are too stupid but to fight anywhere but Candy Mountain is not the same as Candy Mountain being the only viable or desirable battleground.

It needs Spawns reworked and Conquest points spread more, but I'd rather it stay in rotation while that is being addressed, thanks.

unability of people to think and try different strategies is only their flaw, dont blame the map.

[Hades Trooper]

MrMadguy, on 05 January 2016 - 12:12 AM, said:

Ok, may be Alpine should stay, but then the whole purpose of deleting it now - is to fix it. Because keeping it without fixing - is nonsense, as it's the most unbalanced map in whole game. Team, that is spawned at higher side of the Candy Mountain - has ultimate advantage and if they are not noobs and know, what to do - they'll stomp other team in 99% cases.

This advantage - is direct way to Gold Star. It takes 5 minutes (1/3 of maximum match duration) for Assaults to regroup with their team. Assaults from higher team can support their team, while Assaults from lower team have to play WalkWarrior Online for the whole 5 minutes. Attacking Gold Star from the left for lower team - is suicide, cuz they will be stomped via fire from the ridge, while they will be at open space.

Hiding somewhere at the map and waiting for other team to come - is wasting time. If it takes 5 minutes to get to Candy Mountain, then it would take 10 minutes to get to other team, if it would hide at spawns or somewhere else. Having disadvantage - is better, then just wasting time, cuz it's better to die fast and quit this unbalanced map as fast as possible.

I got sick of this map and if it won't be deleted at patch, mentioned before - I will refuse to play it and will quit every time, some trolls will vote for it. And I don't care about COC, because when map is terribly unbalanced - then it's devs' fault, not mine. Being forced to play at unbalanced map and having strong disadvantage - is nonsense. Banning me for refusing to play chess with only half of chessmen on the chessboard? Well, it will tell us, how much PGI actually cares about this game and their playerbase.

P. S. Therma have to be next. Telling me "adapt", "L2P noob", etc. - is BS. I liked all maps in this game, when I was noob. Only when I got experienced enough, I realized, how terrible and unbalanced some maps are. So. Only noobs can like terrible maps, like Alpine and Therma - the worst two maps in a game. It's you, who should "L2P". "Adapting"? I'm not masochist to adapt for pain, sorry.

your talking out of something that isn't you mouth, noob hill is for noobs.

surely even with noob mountain u can find other places to fight, i know i can.

[Xetelian]

Please remove Alpine.

This map gives me a headache in solo queue. It feels like my brawler assault mech can never get anywhere fast enough to make a difference.

[MrMadguy]

"Alpine is ok, because I have won from both sides" argument is invalid. Every player had both good and bad matches on all maps, cuz due to "perfect" MM in this game sometimes you're matched against total noobs, who allow you to do everything, you want, with them and sometimes you're matched against group of pro-Meta-players, who stomp you, no matter what. So, we have to analyze "average match" over long period of time here - with different allies, against different enemies, in different 'Mechs, with different builds, with different tactics, etc. If most matches on this map are terrible - then this map is terrible. Alpine and Therma - two worst maps in this game.

Edited by MrMadguy, 06 January 2016 - 01:06 AM.

[ShinVector]

Alpine needs some tunnels to keep things interesting...

[Kerensky98]

cdlord, on 05 January 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

If you don't want to die on mechburger hill, DON'T GO THERE! I have had successful defenses and assaults in all corners of that map.

Add me to the "Not a bad, map, just bad players" camp.

In a massive map like that you can't find a good place to defend?
Everybody is so ******** to keep "Pushing goldstar" from the bottom, I've even had people tell me it's the best strategy.
You don't need to be SunTzu to know that pushing uphill, with no cover, against a hull down enemy, that is already in position, with multiple ridges to move and fall back to... is a bad idea.
Unless you're a finely tuned top tier team it boils down to pugs cowering on the south ridge slowly being picked apart.

The long game is to fall back to another area and wait for them to leave the mountain. But I prefer to travel behind radio tower hill, group at F9-F10, let LR snipers wear them down, It's easy to find firing lines that restrict counter fire to your target. Eventually a few Try a rush up G9 canyon or through the city where the tables turn and they're fish in your barrel.

It's the easiest map to strategize because you know what the team near I9 mountain will do, and you have the entire rest of the map to counter it.

[MrMadguy]

Kerensky98, on 06 January 2016 - 01:47 AM, said:

Add me to the "Not a bad, map, just bad players" camp.

In a massive map like that you can't find a good place to defend?
Everybody is so ******** to keep "Pushing goldstar" from the bottom, I've even had people tell me it's the best strategy.
You don't need to be SunTzu to know that pushing uphill, with no cover, against a hull down enemy, that is already in position, with multiple ridges to move and fall back to... is a bad idea.
Unless you're a finely tuned top tier team it boils down to pugs cowering on the south ridge slowly being picked apart.

The long game is to fall back to another area and wait for them to leave the mountain. But I prefer to travel behind radio tower hill, group at F9-F10, let LR snipers wear them down, It's easy to find firing lines that restrict counter fire to your target. Eventually a few Try a rush up G9 canyon or through the city where the tables turn and they're fish in your barrel.

It's the easiest map to strategize because you know what the team near I9 mountain will do, and you have the entire rest of the map to counter it.

Aren't you one of this Light/Medium pilots, who think, that they're "smart" and invented some "decent" tactic, but what they actually do - hide somewhere around the map for the whole duration of match and then, when their team is dead, pop up with fresh 'Mech and start "winning" the game via running away from enemy team around the map, which usually ends with crying about their team, giving their position to enemies?

Edited by MrMadguy, 06 January 2016 - 02:15 AM.

[McValium]

no week passes without the usual mrmadguy tear thread^^, fascinating

[TheStranger]

It doesn't need to be fixed, you just need to learn how to play it.

[Lily from animove]

Kerensky98, on 06 January 2016 - 01:47 AM, said:

Add me to the "Not a bad, map, just bad players" camp.

In a massive map like that you can't find a good place to defend?
Everybody is so ******** to keep "Pushing goldstar" from the bottom, I've even had people tell me it's the best strategy.
You don't need to be SunTzu to know that pushing uphill, with no cover, against a hull down enemy, that is already in position, with multiple ridges to move and fall back to... is a bad idea.
Unless you're a finely tuned top tier team it boils down to pugs cowering on the south ridge slowly being picked apart.

The long game is to fall back to another area and wait for them to leave the mountain. But I prefer to travel behind radio tower hill, group at F9-F10, let LR snipers wear them down, It's easy to find firing lines that restrict counter fire to your target. Eventually a few Try a rush up G9 canyon or through the city where the tables turn and they're fish in your barrel.

It's the easiest map to strategize because you know what the team near I9 mountain will do, and you have the entire rest of the map to counter it.

No its hard to strategize because the majority of players just plainly walks to the opponents. Most MWO players tactics end with either, ballin up or rushing the opponent. In best case both. But this doesn't happen often in pugland unless someone takes the lead and has the luck that the others aren't too stubborn to follow this tactic.

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 January 2016 - 05:19 AM.

[MarineTech]

MrMadguy, on 06 January 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Aren't you one of this Light/Medium pilots, who think, that they're "smart" and invented some "decent" tactic, but what they actually do - hide somewhere around the map for the whole duration of match and then, when their team is dead, pop up with fresh 'Mech and start "winning" the game via running away from enemy team around the map, which usually ends with crying about their team, giving their position to enemies?

Why do you even care? Didn't you quit? I thought you quit.... I'm pretty sure we had great fun with your thread in K-Town about how you were quitting until the matchmaker was "fixed."

http://mwomercs.com/...-wont-be-fixed/

How about putting your money where your mouth is and having some strength behind your convictions.

[Mystere]

Xetelian, on 05 January 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

Please remove Alpine.

This map gives me a headache in solo queue. It feels like my brawler assault mech can never get anywhere fast enough to make a difference.

Well, your team's first mistake is forcing you to move your fat *** up that mountain.

ShinVector, on 06 January 2016 - 01:12 AM, said:

Alpine needs some tunnels to keep things interesting...

Now that I can agree to.

Edited by Mystere, 06 January 2016 - 02:06 PM.

[Mystere]

MrMadguy, on 06 January 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

"Alpine is ok, because I have won from both sides" argument is invalid. Every player had both good and bad matches on all maps, cuz due to "perfect" MM in this game sometimes you're matched against total noobs, who allow you to do everything, you want, with them and sometimes you're matched against group of pro-Meta-players, who stomp you, no matter what. So, we have to analyze "average match" over long period of time here - with different allies, against different enemies, in different 'Mechs, with different builds, with different tactics, etc. If most matches on this map are terrible - then this map is terrible. Alpine and Therma - two worst maps in this game.

I'm sorry. But if 90% (just an example) of your player base is terrible, your "average match" will also be terrible, no matter what the map may be.