58 replies to this topic

[Tyler Valentine]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 January 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

For 20 DHS, we are talking a heat cap difference of 4 heat. When you are talking 61-65 heat cap (without efficiencies), that is a pretty small difference. If you do the math, the heat cap difference is very small, and is being grossly over exaggerated. They aren't brought up because they aren't that different, AND Clan DHS dissipate slightly faster. It can't be COMPLETELY ignored, but that was a very small change.

Additionally, if you look at Clan vs IS mechs, you will notice that on average, Clan mechs end up fitting more heat sinks. On a pure laser vomit build, a Clan mech will have 24-26 DHS, where an IS mech will have 18-20.

1.4 vs 1.1 right? so 20 would be a 6 heat difference? or about a 21.5% improvement... sounds significant to me. Add in IS quirks and my Wubshee is 25-40% more heat efficient than my Hellbringers. It's the difference between 3 56pt alphas (HB) and 4 63pt alphas (Banshee)!

Even if your numbers are correct you state that 10% (without any quirks...) is a "pretty small difference", debatable, and then, literally in the next sentence, you say it's "very small". I'm guessing you are a primarily a IS fighter as you seem biased, I have no dog in the fight as I play both sides equally, and I can tell you that Clan 'mechs get much hotter much faster, even with more heat sinks. They deal more damage but they overheat faster.

If I understand your final point correctly you are saying IS should be able to take 6 tons less heat sinks for the same effect?

[SilentWolff]

Clan ERLL are unusable as is with the stupid burn time and no longer have a range advantage either. Ghost heat should be removed from them at the very least.

[Khobai]

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Clan ERLL are unusable as is with the stupid burn time and no longer have a range advantage either. Ghost heat should be removed from them at the very least.

Definitely not. The game needs to get away from the long range laser meta. Not make it worse.

The correct way to balance the game is to nerf all clan lasers so theyre equal to their IS counterparts. And then remove all the IS superquirks.

The only way 1:1 balance can truly be attained is if IS and Clan tech are equal. PGI didnt wanna to 12v10. They decided on the 12v12 route instead. Well the only way thats gonna work is if IS and Clan are equal.



What does "equal" mean? Well it doesnt necessarily mean identical. Two different things can have equality without being identical.

Clan lasers for example could have higher damage, higher heat, longer burn time, and longer cooldowns.
While IS lasers could have lower damage, lower heat, shorter burn time, and shorter cooldowns.

As long as the pluses and minus even out, Its possible to create to completely different weapons that are still in effect equal. Thats the essence of asymmetrical balance which is exactly what MWO should strive to achieve.



Equalizing IS vs Clan tech at the base level would then eliminate the need to use quirks for balance. PGI could then employ quirks for their actual purpose of differentiating similar mechs and buffing underpowered mechs.

For example, if the ISXL engine was changed so it could survive a side torso destruction, IS mechs could now use XL engines freely, which would eliminate the need to give IS mechs absurd structure bonuses. We could then get rid of all the absurd structure superquirks. All because we balanced the tech at the base level.

The only mechs that should have structure quirks are the ones with really bad hitboxes or poor scaling that need structure quirks to put them on the same level as other mechs in their weight class. Thats the proper use of quirks. Quirks should not be used for balancing IS vs Clan nor should they drive the meta.

Edited by Khobai, 06 January 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[AbyssalTyrant]

It would help your point if you weren't comparing a clan heavy to an IS assault that is 30(?) tons heavier.

[SilentWolff]

Khobai, on 06 January 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

Definitely not. The game needs to get away from the long range laser meta. Not make it worse.

The correct way to balance the game is to nerf all clan lasers so theyre equal to their IS counterparts. And then remove all the IS superquirks.

Piss off already. The game needs less no skill brawling Nascar and more range fighting where you actually have to have some skill to aim

[DrxAbstract]

Pardomaru, on 06 January 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

will you PLEASE remove the stupid ghost heat from firing 3 CERLL/CLPL at the same time?

No.

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you already nerfed clan double heatsinks

Umm, they lowered the Heat Capacity and increased the Heat Dissipation... hardly a nerf.

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you nerfed laser weapons on timberwolves and stomcrows with negative quirks

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9d5dd6df3355dc2 - TBR Prime

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a8fbedcd558907e - TBR C

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...87f5fbefecc716a - SCR C

All without negative laser quirks. Considering the only Omnipod pieces that have negative quirks are the ones that allow you to build 9-13 laser walking meltdowns that can alpha twice, pop a coolant pod and alpha a 3rd time for upwards of 180 damage inside of 6 seconds from a 55 ton Mech - You should have something other than just heat to keep that dog on a leash. Also the only reason IS mechs need to stuff 7+ lasers on their Mechs is the IS laser damage outputs are much lower than Clan lasers--IS needs 7-8 lasers to do the same damage as 4-5 Clan lasers weapons. So not only do you need less lasers to do the same damage, yours also have longer ranges, use less critical space and weigh less.

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already as it is the average clan player has to play 3 times better than an IS player just to overcome the disparity between how quirked IS mechs are compared to clan mechs.

That's one grossly exaggerated piece of misinformation you've got there.. I should be doing 3,000 damage Quick Play matches in my Black Knight since I can managed 1,000+ in my Timber. Yeah... That doesn't actually happen.

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havent you IS babies cried enough 'clans are op nerf pls'?

It's a pretty distinct difference between IS quirked laservomit and Clan laservomit:

-IS Pros-
Faster Cooldown
Shorter Duration
Less Heat Generation Per Shot
Higher Heat Cap

-IS Cons-
Heavier Weapons
More Space Used for Weapons
More space Used for Heat Sinks
Less Heat Efficiency Per Damage Dealt
Shorter Range
Less Heat Dissipation

-Clan Pros-
Longer Range
Less Tonnage Used for Weapons
Less Space Used for Weapons
Less Space Used for Heat Sinks
Higher Heat Dissipation
Higher Heat Efficiency Per Damage Dealt

-Clan Cons-
Higher Heat Per Shot
Lower Heat Cap
Longer Cooldown(maybe)
Longer Duration

The main difference is Clan tech promotes comparable average game results as IS, but have a higher potential performance curve than IS weapons, meaning the more efficiently you handle your weapons, aim and heat the better you can potentially perform over IS builds. IS builds on the other hand have a lower potential performance curve. If you had two pilots of equal skill landing every shot precisely, properly managing their heat and playing absolutely phenomenally, the pilot in the Clan mech would see better results for his efforts than the IS pilot would. That's what Clans are - Efficiency is king/More bang for your buck. Whether or not you, or anyone else is capable of utilizing that is a whole other story that just happens to be the root cause of this topic.

But the C-ER LL does need a duration reduction rather badly.

[Gas Guzzler]

Tyler Valentine, on 06 January 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

1.4 vs 1.1 right? so 20 would be a 6 heat difference? or about a 21.5% improvement... sounds significant to me. Add in IS quirks and my Wubshee is 25-40% more heat efficient than my Hellbringers. It's the difference between 3 56pt alphas (HB) and 4 63pt alphas (Banshee)!

Even if your numbers are correct you state that 10% (without any quirks...) is a "pretty small difference", debatable, and then, literally in the next sentence, you say it's "very small". I'm guessing you are a primarily a IS fighter as you seem biased, I have no dog in the fight as I play both sides equally, and I can tell you that Clan 'mechs get much hotter much faster, even with more heat sinks. They deal more damage but they overheat faster.

If I understand your final point correctly you are saying IS should be able to take 6 tons less heat sinks for the same effect?

No that is not what I am saying. Let me break down the math for you:

Base heat cap: 30
Engine DHS Cap: 2 heat per sink *10

New heat cap: 50

cDHS Heat Cap: 1.1 per sink * 10 (for 20 total DHS)
IS DHS heat Cap: 1.5 per sink * 10 (for 20 total DHS)

Clan heat cap: 61
IS heat cap: 65

4/61 = 6.6%

Factoring in 20% heat cap from double basics yields:

61 + .2*61 = 73.2 for Clans
65 + .2*65 = 78 for IS

You are telling me that 4.8 out of 73.2 heat is really hurting your mechs? Especially considering you dissipate a tiny amount of heat faster, coupled with the fact that with 7 slot Endo/Ferro and 2 slot DHS you can fit more of them into your mech? You can look past what is less than an ER ML worth of heat. I can barely notice the difference when I play Clan mechs. It is a grossly over-exaggerated nerf.

No, I'm not biased, I play both equally.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 06 January 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Piss off already. The game needs less no skill brawling Nascar and more range fighting where you actually have to have some skill to aim

yeah because laser vomiting 50 damage alphas at 700m is so difficult. lmao.

if you want skill to be brought back to range fighting then you need to massively nerf the range on lasers. because lasers are pretty much the least skilled weapon around.

PPCs need to be restored as the king of long range energy weapons. The only way that can happen is if lasers are dethroned. Because unlike lasers, PPCs actually require skill to hit things at long range.

As for brawling, im not sure what your irrational hatred of it is, but brawling is where you see the most diverse range of weapons. You see SRMs, LBX, UACs, standard ACs, etc... So the game could use a little more brawling if you ask me.

What the game needs less of is the unskilled mid-range laser vomiting thats prolific everywhere.

Edited by Khobai, 06 January 2016 - 01:48 PM.

[Tyler Valentine]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 January 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

No that is not what I am saying. Let me break down the math for you:

Base heat cap: 30
Engine DHS Cap: 2 heat per sink *10

New heat cap: 50

cDHS Heat Cap: 1.1 per sink * 10 (for 20 total DHS)
IS DHS heat Cap: 1.5 per sink * 10 (for 20 total DHS)

Clan heat cap: 61
IS heat cap: 65

4/61 = 6.6%

Factoring in 20% heat cap from double basics yields:

61 + .2*61 = 73.2 for Clans
65 + .2*65 = 78 for IS

You are telling me that 4.8 out of 73.2 heat is really hurting your mechs? Especially considering you dissipate a tiny amount of heat faster, coupled with the fact that with 7 slot Endo/Ferro and 2 slot DHS you can fit more of them into your mech? You can look past what is less than an ER ML worth of heat. I can barely notice the difference when I play Clan mechs. It is a grossly over-exaggerated nerf.

No, I'm not biased, I play both equally.

Nice job!

What about after you factor in quirks? My IS 'mechs feel so much cooler...

Do more math for me!

Khobai, on 06 January 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

if you want skill to be brought back to range fighting then you need to massively nerf the range on lasers. because lasers are pretty much the least skilled weapon around.

Or add convergence/Cone of Fire to make LASERs less "point and shoot".

[Mcgral18]

Tyler Valentine, on 06 January 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

1.4 vs 1.1 right? so 20 would be a 6 heat difference? or about a 21.5% improvement... sounds significant to me. Add in IS quirks and my Wubshee is 25-40% more heat efficient than my Hellbringers. It's the difference between 3 56pt alphas (HB) and 4 63pt alphas (Banshee)!

PoorDubs only, not TrueDubs.

SilentWolff, on 06 January 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

Piss off already. The game needs less no skill brawling Nascar and more range fighting where you actually have to have some skill to aim

So much skill required for that LOLpha.

Please, point and click at long range is no different to Brawling. It's just considerably more boring.


Removing Ghost Heat on the cERLL is one of the ******* stupidest things I've read here all day...quite impressive.
Increasing it to 3? That's a more sane statement.

Of course, that won't help my Ice Fridge, SadCat or Cute Fox, because they can't mount enough heatsinks to keep them cool. Best to just make it an acceptable weapon in itself.
What were the launch stats anyway? It used to be a good weapon, prior to Pauls 1 Ghost Heat 2 second duration Giganerf...lol

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 January 2016 - 01:48 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Tyler Valentine, on 06 January 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Nice job!

What about after you factor in quirks? My IS 'mechs feel so much cooler...

Do more math for me!

You're welcome, but no.

Maybe you need to look at how you are running your Clan mechs and adjust?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mcgral18, on 06 January 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

What were the launch stats anyway? It used to be a good weapon, prior to Pauls 1 Ghost Heat 2 second duration Giganerf...lol

850m, 11 damage, 9 heat, 1.2s duration.

[Revis Volek]

Khobai, on 06 January 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

Definitely not. The game needs to get away from the long range laser meta. Not make it worse.

The correct way to balance the game is to nerf all clan lasers so theyre equal to their IS counterparts. And then remove all the IS superquirks.

The only way 1:1 balance can truly be attained is if IS and Clan tech are equal. PGI didnt wanna to 12v10. They decided on the 12v12 route instead. Well the only way thats gonna work is if IS and Clan are equal.



What does "equal" mean? Well it doesnt necessarily mean identical. Two different things can have equality without being identical.

Clan lasers for example could have higher damage, higher heat, longer burn time, and longer cooldowns.
While IS lasers could have lower damage, lower heat, shorter burn time, and shorter cooldowns.

As long as the pluses and minus even out, Its possible to create to completely different weapons that are still in effect equal. Thats the essence of asymmetrical balance which is exactly what MWO should strive to achieve.



Equalizing IS vs Clan tech at the base level would then eliminate the need to use quirks for balance. PGI could then employ quirks for their actual purpose of differentiating similar mechs and buffing underpowered mechs.

For example, if the ISXL engine was changed so it could survive a side torso destruction, IS mechs could now use XL engines freely, which would eliminate the need to give IS mechs absurd structure bonuses. We could then get rid of all the absurd structure superquirks. All because we balanced the tech at the base level.

The only mechs that should have structure quirks are the ones with really bad hitboxes or poor scaling that need structure quirks to put them on the same level as other mechs in their weight class. Thats the proper use of quirks. Quirks should not be used for balancing IS vs Clan nor should they drive the meta.

Terrible idea, whats the point in having different mechs with different tech is all the ranges are the same and its just Vanilla warrior?

Clan laser with more heat, longer burn times and longer duration for 1 or 2 more points of dmg for the same range is basically a huge NERF to clans. So SI would have everything but DMG, which for 60% of the MWO community will be scattered and that 1-2 pts of dmg wont make a bit of difference at all.

If we were talking PP FLD weapons sure, but we arent. We are talking hit scan dmg over ticks weapons. This is not equal at all...

Sounds great on paper, but it would make the game tech disparity even more no existent. We might as well all take one tech at this point then.

Edited by DarthRevis, 06 January 2016 - 01:52 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Or add convergence/Cone of Fire to make LASERs less "point and shoot".

Except that doesnt increase the skill level of the game. Nor does it solve the problem of PPCs being useless.

Nerfing the range on lasers and having PPCs fill the long-range energy niche instead of lasers both raises the skill cap of the game as well as bringing PPCs back. Because PPCs actually require skill to use.

Quote

Terrible idea, whats the point in having different mechs with different tech is all the ranges are the same and its just Vanilla warrior?

1) MWO was fun long before clan mechs were even added. Having different tech bases is not required for the game to be fun.

2) While its not required, I do think asymmetrical balance would make the game more fun, and for that reason I specifically pointed out that clan tech and IS tech should be equal but not identical. That means itd be fine for clan lasers to have longer range provided they have an equally negative downside.

Quote

Clan laser with more heat, longer burn times and longer duration for 1 or 2 more points of dmg for the same range is basically a huge NERF to clans.

Not if youre also completely removing IS superquirks. Which is the ultimate goal.

Its all relative. If you nerf clan lasers but also nerf IS quirks by the same amount then the relative balance remains the same.

The problem with the superquirks is that they drive the meta so the only good IS mechs are the ones with the right superquirks. And the rest of the IS mechs are all considered garbage. Thats obviously not good for the game so the superquirks need to be removed completely.

Edited by Khobai, 06 January 2016 - 01:59 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 06 January 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Except that doesnt increase the skill level of the game. Nor does it solve the problem of PPCs being useless.

Nerfing the range on lasers and having PPCs fill the long-range energy niche instead of lasers both raises the skill cap of the game as well as bringing PPCs back. Because PPCs actually require skill to use.

What's funny is you lobbied hard for PPC nerfs. Why is the world so confusing

[Tyler Valentine]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 January 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

You're welcome, but no.

Maybe you need to look at how you are running your Clan mechs and adjust?

LOL!

[Gas Guzzler]

Tyler Valentine, on 06 January 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

LOL!

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 06 January 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Except that doesnt increase the skill level of the game. Nor does it solve the problem of PPCs being useless.

Nerfing the range on lasers and having PPCs fill the long-range energy niche instead of lasers both raises the skill cap of the game as well as bringing PPCs back. Because PPCs actually require skill to use.

Zeus eagerly awaits the day he may once again hurl lightning with great fervor.

[Khobai]

Quote

What's funny is you lobbied hard for PPC nerfs. Why is the world so confusing

Because PPCs were overpowered at the time. I simply wanted PPCs to be balanced. I didnt ask for the opposite extreme of PPCs to be overnerfed into uselessness. Its not my fault that PGI cant balance properly and constantly overnerfs everything (case in point gauss).

I see a potential niche for PPCs as long-range energy sniping weapons. But as long as lasers are capable of doing absurd 50 damage alphas out to 700m then theres no real place for the PPC in the game. The only way I can see of turning PPCs into a useful and balanced sniping weapon is to nerf laser vomit. That means nerfing clan lasers and getting rid of the IS superquirks. And then incrementally buffing the PPC until it gets upto the point where it needs to be.

Edited by Khobai, 06 January 2016 - 02:12 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Mcgral18, on 06 January 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

PoorDubs only, not TrueDubs.



So much skill required for that LOLpha.

Please, point and click at long range is no different to Brawling. It's just considerably more boring.


Removing Ghost Heat on the cERLL is one of the ******* stupidest things I've read here all day...quite impressive.
Increasing it to 3? That's a more sane statement.

Of course, that won't help my Ice Fridge, SadCat or Cute Fox, because they can't mount enough heatsinks to keep them cool. Best to just make it an acceptable weapon in itself.
What were the launch stats anyway? It used to be a good weapon, prior to Pauls 1 Ghost Heat 2 second duration Giganerf...lol

Yes it does take more skill to take out torsos at range, to argue it isn't is just silly. Maybe range is boring to you, but Nascar brawling is boring to me, so to each his own I guess.
And what's wrong with increasing ghost heat from 2 to 3? With the ungodly burn time and no longer having a range advantage why would this be unbalanced?