31 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

And based on what I read about his intentions - 4v4 is going to affect the 12v12 matches that are completely separated from each other.

This does 2 things -
1. Pugs influence unit matches/planet capturing-defending matches that they have otherwise no involvement in.

2. In doing so adds the bad kind of tension (uncontrolled) to such matches rather than using 4v4 as a part of a campaign between two teams to add some real dynamic back and forth to taking a planet - ie, the good kind of tension- its vied for by the players of the match, adds layers and replay-ability to matches and actual competition as well as a thin bit of story to go along with the matches that is a selling point concerning twitch/e-sports/tournament spectating and so forth as well as just getting players involved because the matches start to feel like they have meaning.

-
Yes there should be 4v4 option for people, but it shouldn't affect the rest of the matches because those people aren't participating in the rest of the matches.

--
Since PGI probably won't be willing to actually deliver us a unit v unit campaign, the easiest middleground solution that includes everyone into the same MM bucket is to split the pie chart up with 4v4(forms one team, lances split), 6v6(forms one team 50/50 split), and 12v12 matches.

Chosen at random so the mode selection can't be gamed. Do this and you've with minimal effort effectively added 2 new modes of play to CW without having to create new maps or even put much if any effort into creating new modes.

Edited by sycocys, 08 January 2016 - 12:48 PM.

[AssaultPig]

not sure why this is considered such a bad thing? 4v4 should ideally give pubs or small groups the ability to participate in CW 'campaigns' without having to clog up the 12v12 'hardcore' queue that all these 'serious' players claim to want.

I always thought it would be fun if 4v4 'scout' matches were needed to actually open attack lanes, and that once enough of those had been won by a faction they'd be able to attack the target planet. Might help focus CW players into fewer planets, too

Edited by AssaultPig, 08 January 2016 - 12:55 PM.

[TWIAFU]

Nerf 4-man premades!

[sycocys]

AssaultPig, on 08 January 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

not sure why this is considered such a bad thing?

Because they are not going to be used for attack lanes like he originally thought, that would have been an annoyance at best.

What it seems his new plan is to use them to trigger long toms (damage done in a match you aren't even competing in), radar pings and such things to real-time buff/debuff actual CW matches.

Outside of having pugs interfering in full matches, you will also be giving larger groups an even larger advantage if they can drop 12 and 3 4's.

The concept he is delivering is going to be a train wreck if he goes with it as stated.

[Blackfang]

I really don't feel there has been enough information to make the "mode is DOA" call just yet, bit premature to start lobbying already.

[sycocys]

Not going to be DOA by any means. People will like it, we tested 4v4 in the PTS a while back and it was actually fantastic.

As far as CW goes and the way its going to influence matches it shouldn't influence, it's going to be a terrible if they carry through as Russ described.
I won't go as far as to say it will completely kill the 12v12 matches, but I don't think I'd be far off base to say that it will definitely make less people interested in playing them if people outside the match directly affect the outcome of the one they are playing.

[Mystere]

sycocys, on 08 January 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

As far as CW goes and the way its going to influence matches it shouldn't influence, it's going to be a terrible if they carry through as Russ described.
I won't go as far as to say it will completely kill the 12v12 matches, but I don't think I'd be far off base to say that it will definitely make less people interested in playing them if people outside the match directly affect the outcome of the one they are playing.

I don't know. It sounds like a start to a "big war" feeling. Allied units you may or may not be aware of denied the enemy access to off-map resources and/or allowed you access to similar ones.

Remember, CW is supposed to be a quasi-simulation of war, not an eSport.

Edited by Mystere, 08 January 2016 - 03:36 PM.

[sycocys]

Mystere, on 08 January 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

Remember, CW is supposed to be a quasi-simulation of war, not an eSport.

Everything up to this point concerning its design is eSport.

Having multiple drop types does the war simulation in a far better manner if they aren't going to bother actually developing the game modes or maps out. They can have their least amount of effort path and still deliver something vastly more interesting to play.

[Eboli]

Well, PUGs already already influence CW when a bunch of randoms join up in defence and go up against 12 man groups. Units may win their battles but lose the war so to speak.

What this mode means is that units may need to organise their drops in both modes and no doubt units will have players specialising in them.

This mode hopefully will bring more players into CW which benefits everyone and may be the medium for units finding more members.

I see nothing but advantages.

Cheers
Eboli

Edited by Eboli, 08 January 2016 - 04:39 PM.

[sycocys]

Eboli, on 08 January 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Well, PUGs already already influence CW when a bunch of randoms join up in defence and go up against 12 man groups. Units may win their battles but lose the war so to speak.

How many times have those groups of pugs done damage in the match that your 12 man group is playing?

Those pugs ever hop on comms get your team's info then hop over and pass it to your current opponent?

The way he claims to be setting it up this is exactly what's going to happen. Random pugs will be directly influencing your matches - not just the overall planetary battle, affecting the outcome of matches they are not playing.

[Adamski]

Yeah, I am NOT a fan of the 4v4 outcome providing bonuses / penalties to the 12v12 matches.

It means that when you are winning the 4v4 matches, it makes winning the 12v12 even easier, which creates a huge snowball / domino effect.

I much preferred the ideas of 4v4 opening attack lanes OR having 4v4 & 6v6 provide sub-segments towards planetary capture. (each 4v4 match provides 2.5% planetary control, each 6v6 win provides 3.8%, along with the current 12v12 providing 7.7% as it does now)

[sycocys]

It would be a totally different thing if it was 2 seperate things.

4v4 and/or 6v6 in a queue that just wins less % points.

and if you want that buff/debuff system for 12v12 (and it would be awesome to have it) then that's something that needs to be competed for by the teams playing 12v12.

The two best solutions would be as I stated -
1 Drop x 4 to run through the decks with various drop sizes and missions for bonuses that affect the final CW map drop.
or
Change the pies so that each piece represents either the 1-3 chain for buffs with the 4th map being the CW map.

Personally I believe having the whole thing tied into one 12v12 competition is by far the better option because it adds depth to each match, tactical value to your mech choices, and a lot of dynamic variance between each match which creates the story type of tension and massive replay value.

[Davers]

Why does the OP assume that the 4v4 matches will be all pug? Wouldn't it make sense for the larger units to also field scout teams to get all the buffs?

[Jae Hyun Nakamura]

Well...groups will specialize for 4v4 only for the not playing with pugs.

And the only thing that will come from this is more pugstomp and much more pugstomp because of the smaller CW units.

And there will be more wine for my cheese.

[arkani]

Given PGI track record so far.....
This is going to suck royally.

[Mystere]

Adamski, on 08 January 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

Yeah, I am NOT a fan of the 4v4 outcome providing bonuses / penalties to the 12v12 matches.

It means that when you are winning the 4v4 matches, it makes winning the 12v12 even easier, which creates a huge snowball / domino effect.

sycocys, on 09 January 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

It would be a totally different thing if it was 2 seperate things.

4v4 and/or 6v6 in a queue that just wins less % points.

and if you want that buff/debuff system for 12v12 (and it would be awesome to have it) then that's something that needs to be competed for by the teams playing 12v12.

I'm sorry to say this but that is the same kind of one-dimensional thinking that has been plaguing this game from the start. Wars are not just about individual battles totally isolated from the rest. All we have right now is a purely land-grab based war effort. What about logistics? What about supply lines? We need more depth in CW and I say this looks like a good start (assuming it's done correctly, of course).

Davers, on 09 January 2016 - 01:10 AM, said:

Why does the OP assume that the 4v4 matches will be all pug? Wouldn't it make sense for the larger units to also field scout teams to get all the buffs?

Precisely. Nothing is stated that this is a solo-only feature.

[Adamski]

The 4v4 is going to be where the best players drop, and as soon as it flips enough planetary advantage its going to stop people from dropping as 12v12 until the bonuses have been negated.

[sycocys]

Mystere, on 09 January 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

I'm sorry to say this but that is the same kind of one-dimensional thinking that has been plaguing this game from the start. Wars are not just about individual battles totally isolated from the rest. All we have right now is a purely land-grab based war effort. What about logistics? What about supply lines? We need more depth in CW and I say this looks like a good start (assuming it's done correctly, of course).

Precisely. Nothing is stated that this is a solo-only feature.

You are absolutely right, we do need those things. And we need those things to be a part of the 12v12/unit v unit matches - because that creates replayability. It creates a psuedo story for each encounter. And ultimately it would bridge that gap that Russ has been looking for to give MWo a place in the e-sports world by bringing a unique feeling and some of that MW/BT feeling to the Warfare mode.

As far as solo players goes, the mode is being designed/intended as a place to let them take part in CW, and the solo players still vastly outnumber the group players so they are going to tend to drop in the place where it appears as though they will have a more balanced playing field - which they really won't if they drop against groups, which is why there is a 50/50 chance Russ will restrict it to solo only.

Either way you look at it, having players directly influence the outcome of live matches they are not playing is not a good choice - whether they are pug or group is inconsequential to that fact.

[Mead]

Awesome, yet another excuse for people to pile hate on puglife. But the forums should be entertaining if nothing else.

[DoctorDetroit]

Maybe if they didnt keep the details of CW phase 3 and 4v4 mode so secret, we wouldnt have to speculate about this. And we could give needed suggestions.

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 10 January 2016 - 06:32 PM.