50 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Coralld, on 09 January 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

Sorry Fup but my BS-O-meter spiked with that statment. Come on man, your better than that.

It might not apply as much since the efficiencies tree nerf, but if you have one of the agility-quirked chassis you can still pull it off.

Seriously though, 1050 m/s is crappy for a weapon that is supposed to be effective out to at least 540m, and 1200 m/s is crappy for a weapon that is supposed to be effective out to 810m.

Laser vomit dethroned PPFLD for a reason, and Gauss was the most favored projectile weapon for a reason.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

oldradagast, on 09 January 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

Wrong. PPC's objectively "suck" - just look at my post above. There is ONE and ONLY ONE use for them, and that is high-speed sniping, usually with jump-jets, because it is difficult to hold a large pulse laser on target during the jump. That's it. From the viewpoint of heat, total potential damage dealt, probability of dealing damage (hitscan vs. slow projectile), and minimum range limitations, the PPC is in all ways inferior to the Large Pulse Laser.

If they work for you, fine. But to claim that "it works for me, therefore everyone else is an idiot who can't play" is arrogant and laughable in the face of facts and reality. Grow up.

The fact that you claim it is hard to hold a large pulse laser on target during a jump proves that you are not very skilled at the game and need practice. Dont worry, one day you will get there, it just takes time. PPFLD has always been an advantage the PPC has over the LPL. If you are really good you can cockpit certain mechs. It also counters ecm. The PPC can also be fired and you can instantly torso twist to spread damage, which is a huge advantage over laser's.

I am claiming exactly what you are complaining about, and the sad thing is its true. If they dont work for you, fine, but dont claim that just because most people dont put in the time and effort into actually getting good at firing PPC's, which are a good weapon when quirked, are bad. Its laughable and ignorant. L2P.

[Coralld]

FupDup, on 09 January 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

It might not apply as much since the efficiencies tree nerf, but if you have one of the agility-quirked chassis you can still pull it off.

Seriously though, 1050 m/s is crappy for a weapon that is supposed to be effective out to at least 540m, and 1200 m/s is crappy for a weapon that is supposed to be effective out to 810m.

Laser vomit dethroned PPFLD for a reason, and Gauss was the most favored projectile weapon for a reason.

PPC Velocity is 1,100m/s, ERPPC Velocity is 1,200m/s, an AC5 Velocity is 1,150 m/s. So by that logic AC5s should be crap as well but you and I both know that they are not.

Not going to argue about the laser vomit and Gauss, but the thing with the lasers is that they were buffed because PGI tried to make them competitive with PPCs when PPCs were the overloard weapons when they were much cooler and had a higher velocity. The problem however now is that PGI brought PPCs back into a more balance state (not ideal or perfect mind you but more balanced over all) that PGI now needs to tone down some of the buffs the laser weapons were given when PPCs were the overloards.
If you read what I said on page 2 about the current state of laser weapons in MWO vs TT counterparts and my proposed soft changes, you would agree that it would help the PPC family and rain in the laser vomit a bit.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Nerfed into oblivion....

[FupDup]

Coralld, on 09 January 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

PPC Velocity is 1,100m/s, ERPPC Velocity is 1,200m/s, an AC5 Velocity is 1,150 m/s. So by that logic AC5s should be crap as well but you and I both know that they are not.

I think that the vanilla, 8-ton AC/5 is in fact crap unless quirked. The ULTRA AC/5 that weighs 9 tons (7 for Clan) is effective, and that's because it can double its damage output for a short while.

Coralld, on 09 January 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Not going to argue about the laser vomit and Gauss, but the thing with the lasers is that they were buffed because PGI tried to make them competitive with PPCs when PPCs were the overloard weapons when they were much cooler and had a higher velocity. The problem however now is that PGI brought PPCs back into a more balance state (not ideal or perfect mind you but more balanced over all) that PGI now needs to tone down some of the buffs the laser weapons were given when PPCs were the overloards.

That isn't how the PPC history happened.

Back during the very first poptart era without Clans, PGI did not buff lasers at all, I think except for tiny stat changes on pulse lasers (and pulses were still completely useless in those days). They nerfed PPCs in a few ways like restoring their TT heat, adding Ghost Heat, and eventually reducing the velocity down to 1500 m/s (a long time ago they were as high as 2000).

At a later point in time, after the Clan invasion happened, some people created the 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss Dire Wolf build. This is the build that got PPCs nerfed again, this time down to 850 m/s for the original PPC and I think around 950-1050 m/s for the ER.

Since then, PGI has slowly nudged PPC velocity up a bit, but still not nearly at their old levels. Also, PGI has been giving several mechs PPC velocity quirks to make up for the old nerf.

If a weapon has to be quirked to excel, that should be the sign of an underlying problem with that weapon.

Coralld, on 09 January 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

If you read what I said on page 2 about the current state of laser weapons in MWO vs TT counterparts and my proposed soft changes, you would agree that it would help the PPC family and rain in the laser vomit a bit.

In TT, a lot of weapons were crap. The Inner Sphere ERLL and LPL were both crappy in TT, with the regular LL being barely passable. If you had the tonnage to mount a PPC, it was almost always better to just use a PPC than the other Inner Sphere heavy energy weapons.

The IS ERLL and LPL don't need nerfs. The most you could argue for is maybe reducing a few laser quirks on some mechs, but the base stats of those weapons are not out of line.


The reason that lasers took over the meta isn't because of TT stat changes, it's because of PPCs (and ACs to a lesser extent) getting heavily nerfed.

When you nerf one weapons family, that creates a power vacuum for the next best choice to fill.

Edited by FupDup, 09 January 2016 - 11:49 AM.

[Coralld]

FupDup, on 09 January 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

I think that the vanilla, 8-ton AC/5 is in fact crap unless quirked. The ULTRA AC/5 that weighs 9 tons (7 for Clan) is effective, and that's because it can double its damage output for a short while.

Both AC5 and UAC5 have the same velocity, which is what we were talking about, at least it was my respons to what you said earlier about not being able to hit even slow Assaults mechs with PPC. The thing with AC5s and UAC5s is that they are very deadly when you can at least mount 2x but we are getting side tracked because I really do not want to go down the Rabbit hole and touch on things that are irreverent to the conversation.

FupDup, on 09 January 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

That isn't how the PPC history happened.

Back during the very first poptart era without Clans, PGI did not buff lasers at all, I think except for tiny stat changes on pulse lasers (and pulses were still completely useless in those days). They nerfed PPCs in a few ways like restoring their TT heat, adding Ghost Heat, and eventually reducing the velocity down to 1500 m/s (a long time ago they were as high as 2000).

At a later point in time, after the Clan invasion happened, some people created the 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss Dire Wolf build. This is the build that got PPCs nerfed again, this time down to 850 m/s for the original PPC and I think around 950-1050 m/s for the ER.

Since then, PGI has slowly nudged PPC velocity up a bit, but still not nearly at their old levels. Also, PGI has been giving several mechs PPC velocity quirks to make up for the old nerf.

If a weapon has to be quirked to excel, that should be the sign of an underlying problem with that weapon.

Actually it is what happened, perhaps you forgot PGI also did several baby stepping buffs with all Lasers as well? I have been around just as long as you have, and even though you are not wrong, we are in fact both right.
For clarification, when I was talking about the PPC Overloard days, everything you just mentioned here is what I was talking about. The reason why I didn't go into such detail is because I didn't think I needed to make a post similar to a MWO equivalent to the History Channel.

FupDup, on 09 January 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

In TT, a lot of weapons were crap. The Inner Sphere ERLL and LPL were both crappy in TT, with the regular LL being barely passable. If you had the tonnage to mount a PPC, it was almost always better to just use a PPC than the other Inner Sphere heavy energy weapons.

The IS ERLL and LPL don't need nerfs. The most you could argue for is maybe reducing a few laser quirks on some mechs, but the base stats of those weapons are not out of line.


The reason that lasers took over the meta isn't because of TT stat changes, it's because of PPCs (and ACs to a lesser extent) getting heavily nerfed.

When you nerf one weapons family, that creates a power vacuum for the next best choice to fill.

Again, I don't disagree, TT was horribly imbalanced, something I forgot to mention as a disclaimer in my post so that is indeed a my bad.
As for the Heavy energy weapons not needing a nerf, they in fact most certainly do, but as you can see, my proposed changes are nothing magor and they are in fact rather small and were to curve some of the buffs PGI gave those weapons way back when.
Again, let me be clear, most of those stat changes PGI made to make laser weapons more competitive I actually agree with, but now I think we can tone some of those down as indirect buffs to PPCs as well as buffing ERPPCs them selves by slightly reducing their heat.
As for quirks, sure, some can be toned down, again, toned down, not bludgened with Pauls Nerf bat. And to expand on this a bit, only a very few mechs are actually over quirked. Address these few mechs first and then see where we stand.

I am in favor of baby steps because I really do not want large changes that will only swing the pendulum the other way again because that was no fun either. I am tired of trading one crappy situation for another with the only difference being is the smell.

Edited by Coralld, 09 January 2016 - 12:41 PM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 09 January 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

That isn't how the PPC history happened.

Back during the very first poptart era without Clans, PGI did not buff lasers at all, I think except for tiny stat changes on pulse lasers (and pulses were still completely useless in those days). They nerfed PPCs in a few ways like restoring their TT heat, adding Ghost Heat, and eventually reducing the velocity down to 1500 m/s (a long time ago they were as high as 2000).

At a later point in time, after the Clan invasion happened, some people created the 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss Dire Wolf build. This is the build that got PPCs nerfed again, this time down to 850 m/s for the original PPC and I think around 950-1050 m/s for the ER.

The IS ERLL and LPL don't need nerfs. The most you could argue for is maybe reducing a few laser quirks on some mechs, but the base stats of those weapons are not out of line.

The Nerfinator initially wanted to HALVE the PPC speeds, to 750. He was merciful...to 950M/s
http://mwomercs.com/...13410-07jul2015

If the cLPL is brought down to the nominal effective point, the isLPL could be touched down in one aspect (whether range, burn time or damage). It's only a touch behind the cLPL in effectiveness, but shorter range VS half time duration.

[Deathlike]

At higher levels of play.. the velocity for an unquirked PPC becomes less effective vs its alternative options. Both Large Pulse versions (IS and Clan) are usually more effective weapons @ that point (though different tech-wise, but more effective than their PPC counterparts).

Edited by Deathlike, 09 January 2016 - 02:10 PM.

[jss78]

On the IS side it needs to be noted that while the PPC/ERPPC base velocity is slow, +40 or 50 % PPC velocity quirks are quite common. Give them those quirks and they're nice enough. A high-heat AC/10 for half the weight (assuming 2 tons ammo).

I guess no-one really knows why all or most of that velocity buff wasn't given to the weapon itself, instead of putting those crazy quirks on most IS mechs which run PPC's in lore.

Edited by jss78, 09 January 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[VinJade]

if they got rid of the zero damage for the PPC at min range the weapon would be usable at short range.
as the weapon is truly a mid - long range weapon as it has a reach as long as the ER LL which means the ER LL should lose a good % of range as it is only a single point longer than the PPC.

Also I highly doubt someone wins with the PPC as their prime weapon system as it deals zero damage once within the Mini range, they most likely use a different weapon for that.

[Zordicron]

Trauglodyte, on 08 January 2016 - 07:36 PM, said:

I'm still trying to knock all the dust off and catch up - damn this board has a lot to read after a year hiatus. When I left, the Clans had just been released, poptarting was still all the rage with some Paul talk on nerfing them, every Light mech was either a Jenner, Firestarter, or Douche Raven, and pretty much everyone was stripping equipment to slap on as many PPCs as they could. Now, I realize that lasers are, due to them being a beam weapon, a lot easier to use and the range bonus over normal PPCs makes them advantageous on top of their lighter weight, lesser heat, and negligible damage difference. But, I've seen quite a few posts bagging on the weapon and I hardly ever see anyone carry them. I even had a unit member ask me why I bothered equipping one on my Blackjack.

Someone fill me in!

In a nutshell-

Laser Host State Rewind(HSR) was improved, dramatically, and recent rework of HSR in total(now HSR will track mech "bones" to greatly increase HSR accuracy) means point and click weapons that actually do all the damage they are supposed to, right where you point your crosshair, supercede everything else in the game. Combine this with no ammo, better tonnage, and our crazy high heat scale cap- and the game is mostly peek, insta-gib someone with a 40-60 pointy "point and click" instahit laser alpha, return to cover to cool off.

Lasers are so easy to use compared to other weapons, and so reliable and potent, they have taken over top billing hands down. Gauss was also in the mix, but and don't let people fool you, this is/was because they offer a good dmg and, most importantly, NO HEAT weapon to pair with high heat lasers. Lasers are so easy to use, they have earned a title among some salty players as "crutch weapons". I don;t use that term myself, but there is no denying the superiority of a weapon with no leading a target, no ammo, instant dmg delivery and optimal ranges to combat any foe with no min range- at the cost of the least tonnage. The biggest contender for this has been clan ERML for some time.

Spreadsheet warriors will seldom admit to this and continually demand more spreadsheet tweeks because for sure, no doubt, changing a number is how you fix every single thing in the game. This is because, obviously, nothing else has ever happened to weapon balance or gameplay besides Russ and Paul's spreadsheet tweeks. Lasers are top dog because they got buffed, PPC's are bad because they got nerfed.

Defenders of laser vomit meta humping will tell you "lasers are balanced because they spread dmg!!" this is a myth, they never did, nor do they now(maybe a little on Clan ERLL because the burn time actually is substantial) they were always laughed at by the tryhards as n00b weapons "splashing dmg everywhere" but in reality they just had bad, bad HSR and a lot of dmg just didn't register at all, and sometimes it registered in really weird places. Ballistic HSR was spotty too, but was much easier to tell if the hits landed or not. With the main issue of lasers now fixed, suddenly

Lasers, lasers painting the sky like G.I. Joe cartoons everywhere.

Lots of talk about "dodging" PPC shots, which is sillyness- and lots of people back the idea a super fast projectile fixes all the issues. Maybe for them it would, but in reality most people supporting that idea want PPC's to travel fast enough they replicate laser style insta-hits. Or close enough(see gauss rifle projectile speeds where absolute minimal target lead is required). It would also make PPC's synch up with more weapons, for the all important "1 button mouse" style trigger grouping for maximum alpha ability! This also is very rarely mentioned, mostly people will deny and use hyperbolic "dodging enemy mechs" arguments instead.

Anyway, that is my perspective on it. Laser boat is king, CERML and CLPL. IS LPL/MPL/ML or heavily quirked LL or ERLL(rarely combine LL with ML/LPL, nature of quirks and one trick pony mega alpha methods) will "out skill" your mixed loadout or otherwise "not instant hit" weapons unless you use special considerations in your piloting.

This sounds a tad salty I realize, but that also has been the nature of these forums for a while now. A very vocal minority has Russ' ear on twitter, leaving the rest of us to grumble about how inept the voices of our community are as we are largely ignored and dismissed by those very few who "know better".

Best advice I can give: ignore these forums and just drop in game and blast giant robots. The game is a lot more fun when you don;t care what some self aggrandizing nerd raging forumites have to say about how broken the spreadsheets are.