296 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

First thanks for keeping the discussion going into a second day and many pages! I'll re-browse what I missed when I get back in from my morning routes.

It does seem like Russ understands that he needs to make a major change to CW as intended to focus on player retention just as it appeared he was doing when you read that twitter update.
-So that means now's the best time to help him focus it down and make the challenge mode group queue have faster drop times.
-Also to help them create better tools for commanders to train and recruit in the solo queue.
-And very important its time to work to make CW more interesting and unique for/to both queues.

[Colonel ONeill]

you can see whats in the queue on your side. if you are too dumb to group up with some guys on TS or at least by LFG, then you deserve to get farmed by SWOL. otherwise carry your team!

different queues will not stop the farming tho. good teams will farm bad ones. good pug team will farm the tier5 trial team. and sync drops will be even more easy than it is in solo-q...

Edited by Colonel ONeill, 14 January 2016 - 04:12 AM.

[mania3c]

Colonel ONeill, on 14 January 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

you can see whats in the queue on your side. if you are too dumb to group up with some guys on TS or at least by LFG, then you deserve to get farmed by SWOL. otherwise carry your team!

different queues will not stop the farming tho. good teams will farm bad ones. good pug team will farm the tier5 trial team. and sync drops will be even more easy than it is in solo-q...

You may be right..but honestly, it would still certainly help to keep at least some non-hardcore players interested in CW. CW can't work without population. So something has to be done..or whole CW will be just huge waste of effort.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Colonel ONeill, on 14 January 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

different queues will not stop the farming tho...and sync drops will be even more easy than it is in solo

We can't stop people from exploiting or cheating either. That doesn't mean PGI should stop work on this game.

[Bobzilla]

They should make a skirmish queue: quick drop, only solos, only skirmish.

Make faction queue: conquest, assault, cw. All faction v faction, LP for doing objectives in conquest/assault. Wins in conquest/assault count as a % of a cw win (10% ?). Only groups can choose cw, and planet, MM can pull solos to anywhere.

[Kilo 40]

Bobzilla, on 14 January 2016 - 03:42 AM, said:

The only reason pugs are allowed in CW was to give groups someone to fight, decrease wait times. An increase in population is only helpful if it's units/groups. So split queue is conterpoductive. It sucks but its true.

The reason pugs ar in CW, is because everyone didn't join a group like they thought players would. when they realized they had basically made a game mode for about 5% of the player base, they decided to let pugs in.

[MechWarrior3671771]

iLLcapitan, on 14 January 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

The only one who sounds like he just ragequitted a stomp by MS is you btw.

Huh? I haven't ragequit. I am used to getting stomped, its no big deal. Its part of every game.

And I'm not complaining about being stomped - I've been playing this game for a year now, if I get stomped or spawncamped, its because I screwed up. I try to figure out what mistakes I made so I don't repeat it.

I'm talking about newbies in trial mechs being spawncamped by vet premades, like MS does. I am not a newbie in a trial mech.

You sound upset... why?

Quote

What makes you think you are in a position to speak for the new playerbase

Because I've spoken to many of them that did ragequit, and because I've seen this same pattern in other games. It always ends the same - elite players holding barren terrain that no one wants to play for anymore. If you were as accustomed to winning things as I am, you would understand. Maybe when you are older?

Quote

I'm waiting till your premade is stomped by another premade, for you to start spamming the forums again about inequality.

Uhm no. My premades have been stomped by other premades many many times. It had nothing to do with "inequality", they were simply better players using better tactics. I took the stomp as a lesson in what to do.

Quote

You don't seem to realise, that a single queue won't match you against people of your skill either way.

What? You've really made some silly assumptions here. I don't care if single que matches me against people of equal skill. And I would hope to get pitted against pilots better than me so that I can improve faster.

You've overestimated your intelligence, and unlike some here, I prefer not to pick on cripples.

Have a good day.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 14 January 2016 - 04:41 AM.

[RussianWolf]

xMADCATTERx, on 13 January 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

CW was and never will be that friendly to solo puggers or new players. That's why regular que is there....to slum with the other scoundrels who are too stubborn or incompetent to join a real unit.

You are exactly the reason that you have 30 minute wait times for matches in CW.

[sycocys]

Alright, quickly browsed back through stuff.

Basically - split queue is what Russ decided on. That's how he feels PGI can best deliver a better environment for solo/new players. Also probably some of that to help give the units/lore buffs a place to exist with the planetary control system, which they refuse to look beyond.

That's how its going to be, hopefully they don't push that part off to CW3 in my opinion because 4-5 months and the solo/new population might already see the damage done and they won't be interested in returning to try it out. I want these players playing, having challenging matches, and most importantly feeling like they have an opportunity to at least compete for a victory.

How they are going to deal with the split queue is on the other hand up for debate and something we might be able to guide them into a direction that will make it so groups will be able to find matches in reasonable times, and reasonably rewarded for taking on the higher challenge so they will tend to stay out of the solo queue (and not force PGI to implement ToS or other further restrictions like vastly reduced unit size.)

---
Questions were raised about planetary control and such. That's probably easiest dealt with by removing player choice in the micro scale of planet choice - going back to a modified version of the attack lane/planet selector algorithm to automate it in the background and then tallying up faction Wins per ceasefire cycle and applying them to successfully winning/defending planets.

This would allow for the MM system to remain open across skill, but also allow PGI to reduce the amount of buckets to a far more sustainable level to provide quicker forming matches for everyone in each queue. It would also greatly reduce the ability of teams to be able to sync drop against pugs, a limiter in place before additional steps are even required.

I understand lore players would want some choice in the matter though, and they had mentioned the voting system - that could be implemented in lieu of the automated system, but still operating as a background function rather than the current one that creates dozens of buckets to drop into.

Either system would work fine for that and still allow all players to be competing over the same planets for their factions. Tags should probably just get removed, a monthly/quarterly leader board system with additional levels of rewards would still be a far more viable option moving forward.

--
Group queue should have a higher reward output because it is going to be higher competition. For both sides, but especially for the team that loses - they should still be gaining a smaller contract amount of LP/C-bills. Possibly base this on contract length for the base bonus (say 10,20,30,40 LP based on lengths) then a multiplier based on rank (1-20), and an additional multiplier for a win.
That would alleviate some of the pain of losing for the less comp level teams, and greatly bonus winning/competing in this queue for the c-bill/rewards grinders.

--
The queues should also be a bit different in my opinion.

Group queue should get an expanded version of CW. More of a team v team mini campaign. Multiple matches lined up per competition, which would give groups of different style different opportunities to compete against each other. It would allow PGI to still implement things like 4v4 and Invasion mode bonuses to be accrued and keep these thing confined within the setup of a single match up which creates a more intense and variable mode for team against team action.

This is the sort of thing that would set MWO apart from other games in its attempt to be eSports worthy and give it some of that TT/BT flair and drive some interest in its competition level mode.

Solo queue should be a more simplified version, offering only one drop match per setup and just chosen at random. No buff gathering, and a lesser % of contribution towards planetary control - because shorter matches, and less competition. There should also be some better tools implemented to allow vets to train/guide/recruit players from this queue to help continue the cycle of moving players up into the higher competition levels.


Well, that's all I've got atm. Actually glad to see Russ is being somewhat thoughtful about the future of the game on this one.

[KahnWongFuChung]

Here is the thing to look at OP. How many solo MM players are complaining about matches? hardly none some want new game modes and maps to freshen up MWO after 3 years but most are happy with the game play.

If CW was segregated the players would be happy pugs/casuals would play there own kind and the groups could be queued to play just groups for those players but I would make the group CW mm queues playable in 4v4-6v6=8v8 and 12v12 and give groups more rewards and incentives to play and build units.

Plus CW needs some more game modes as well. Will PGI listen I highly doubt it but we can hope.

[sycocys]

I'd rather see 4v4 / 6v6 implemented directly into the line of 12v12 matches to earn the bonuses and give that mode of play some real depth within the grasp of what PGI is capable of doing while not adding layers of buckets to the system.

But really either way would be much better to separate out the group/unit queue and make it more desirable.

[JaxRiot]

Raubwurst, on 14 January 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

Tschoo tschooo... Here comes the news train




Wished CW Phase 3 would be there on the 19th January

Wow..

I didnt really think it was going to happen.

I mean, Ive been supporting separate ques, and knew Russ was going to do it sooner or later. Just didnt think it was going to be in Phase 3

[Khobai]

split queues were the only thing that made sense

dunno why people are so surprised about it

Quote

Group queue should have a higher reward output because it is going to be higher competition.

nope.

rewards for regular planets should be the same regardless of whether youre a pug or a group. there are some really bad groups out there so assuming the competition is going to be higher is just a fallacy. rewards should be based solely on how well you did personally and have nothing to do with whether youre pugging or in a group.

phase 3 is supposed to give merc corps their own merc corp vs merc corp area to fight in (the periphery) where you can earn greater rewards and pugs cant interfere. that is where competition will be highest and where the rewards will be highest.

Edited by Khobai, 14 January 2016 - 08:24 AM.

[Almond Brown]

MadcatX, on 13 January 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

Hawken was supposed to kill this game. Star Citizen was supposed to kill this game (Maybe it will when it gets released in 5 years, talk about scope bloat). ECM was supposed to kill this game. The original P2W claims for clan mechs was supposed to kill this game. 3PV was supposed to kill this game. Whatever meta people disagreed with was supposed to kill this game. Consumables was supposed to kill this game. Ghost heat was supposed to kill this game.

Some folks need to stop crying wolf about everything. Don't like CW stomps then don't play CW, it's not like CW offers much more then quick play does to a new player anyways.

Hehehehe good one. May finally prove that "What doesn't kill ya" and all that right?

And surely for some/many/the New players, the fact they get 4 Mechs to drop in may indeed be a big draw. Respawn has always had a good following when asked for back in the day.

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 13 January 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

People are turning this into an "us vs. them" problem when the real problem is that CW is woefully incomplete and significantly lacks depth and immersion.

I am beginning to suspect some people have some kind of agenda against CW or MWO itself.

MWO is a WIP and many assume they have replaced the "Magic Wand of do Everything Now" but alas, it has not been. But that is alright, making stuff is easy when you aren't actually the one making it, so impatience becomes a thing.

As so many have said before, unsatisfied with the way things are progressing? Take a break and check back later or begin you own Major Online Project and let us know so we can help speed things up by "belittling" your work and your person, as you go along. It appears that many think that is the best method around here.

Edited by Almond Brown, 14 January 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[Lazor Sharp]

Fen Tetsudo, on 13 January 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

Okay, great idea. Why isn't that happening?

From where I sit, people post the "join a team, hop on faction comms" line, and then do nothing. That's why I don't take the argument seriously. Are you reaching out onto the Steam forums and the New Player forums here to do all that? Because I'm not seeing it. And that's why I treat it as just another excuse - "tell them to join a team so we feel less bad about farming noobs"
Its sounds like Russ is more concerned with retaining the new players than keeping CW "hardcore".

Makes sense - if they are dedicating all their time and energy on CW now, why would they cater to the shrinking number of veteran players who want to gate out the new players?

From where I set, PGI has been a TOTAL FAIL in creating a TEAM BASED GAME for TEAMS / Units to play from DAY 1.....

1. From day 1 PGI/IGP failed to make the Tools needed to get new players in units to learn Team Work, and teach them how not to be Solo / Stray Cats / Baby Seals, in a Team based game... THIS Should have been a #1 priority in closed beta.......

2. PGI Did the Most Stupid thing EVER, when they made the 4 man limit, that ran off a ton of Team / Unit players, that have mostly never come back.

3. Then, PGI coddled the Solo / Rambo / Stray Cat / Puggie / Special Snow Flake mentality when they created the pub solo Q which has just continued to foster all the Solo's bad habits......... That the solo's then want to bring to CW, that sand bags the real TEAMS...

MWO has a shrinking number of veteran players, because PGI has done all most NOTHING, to promote Units, or Coordinated Team Work, to increase the number of vets/units, and then want to call it a Team Game.....

So, it is No wander that we have such a high % of solos / with no tag's / or puggie's in ultra casual 2-5 man units that have never been trained in team work, as they were never given the tools, or incentive to be in a bigger unit, and learn Coordinated Team Work from the Vet's. Now most of them are ruined, and all they know is how to be, is solo, stray cat, rambo's, that come whine on the forum about being seal clubbed by Players in units, using the oh so OP - Coordinated Team Work........... that they now refuse to learn...........

4. WE Do NOT want to gate out new players, new players just don't need to do CW as a solo in trial mechs....!!!! Units reach out to newbies all the time, and if they do hop on faction or unit comm's, most units are there to help train them in Coordinated Team Work, even if they are still in trial mechs. It is in the best interest's of all units to recruit as many New Players as possible, and train them to be Team Players, and NOT to be Solo Stray Cats. So that CW has the UNIT population to make that mode successful as a Hard Core Mode for Unit's to play.....

If there are a higher % of units that can field 12 mans on a regular basis. What will then happen, there will be a LOT more % of Casual 12 man Units to play against, and a lesser % of the elite 12 mans in the total pool of 12 mans playing.... so then they will not run up against -MS-, 228, etc, nearly as often.....

More 12 mans playing 12 mans with a bigger pool of small 20-30 man units, to medium 30-50 man units that can field 12 mans on a regular basis, means CW is a better place to play for everyone, but the hard core anti social / anti team work / solo / rambo players, that should Never be playing in a TEAM BASED GAME Mode to began with......

If just a small % of the solo / puggie population we currently have, were given every incentive and tool possible to join a unit, and play a Team game as a Coordinated Team, the way the Mode was meant to be, CW would be so much better off.

But MWO seams to have more than its fair share of players with the anti social, anti Team work, Solo / Rambo / Stray Cat / Puggie / Special Snow Flake Mentality..... No wander they become baby seals, and then give every lame excuse possible to continue being baby seals - baddies, wanting a solo Q in a unit / Team Based Faction WARFARE Mode..........

Edited by Lazor Sharp, 14 January 2016 - 09:05 AM.

[RussianWolf]

Lazor Sharp, on 14 January 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

From where I set, PGI has been a TOTAL FAIL in creating a TEAM BASED GAME for TEAMS / Units to play from DAY 1.....

1. From day 1 PGI/IGP failed to make the Tools needed to get new players in units to learn Team Work, and teach them how not to be Solo / Stray Cats / Baby Seals, in a Team based game... THIS Should have been a #1 priority in closed beta.......

2. PGI Did the Most Stupid thing EVER, when they made the 4 man limit, that ran off a ton of Team / Unit players, that have mostly never come back.

3. Then PGI coddled the Solo / Rambo / Stray Cat / Puggie / Special Snow Flake mentality when they created the pub solo Q which has just continued to foster all the Solo's bad habits......... That the solo's then want to bring to CW, that sand bags the real TEAMS...

MWO has shrinking number of veteran players, Because PGI has done all most NOTHING, to promote Units, or Coordinated Team Work, and increase the number of vets, and then want to call it a Team Game.....


So, it is No wander that we such a high % of solos / with no tag's / or puggie's in ultra casual 2-5 man units that have never been trained in team work, as they were never given the tools, or incentive to be in a bigger unit, and learn Coordinated Team Work. Now most of them are ruined, and all they know is how to be, is solo, stray cat, rambo's, that come whine on the forum about being seal clubbed by Players in units, using the oh so OP - Coordinated Team Work........... that they now refuse to learn...........

4. WE Do NOT want to gate out new players, new players just don't need to do CW as a solo in trial mechs.... Units reach out to newbies all the time, and if they do hop on faction or unit comm's, most units are there to help train them in Coordinated Team Work, even if they are still in trial mechs. It is in the best interest's of all units to recruit as many New Players as possible, and train them to be Team Players, and NOT to be Solo Stray Cats. So that CW has the UNIT population to make that mode successful as a Hard Core Mode for Unit's to play.....

If there are a higher % of units that can field 12 mans on a regular basis. What will then happen, there will be a LOT more % of Casual 12 man Units to play against, and a lesser % of the elite 12 mans in the total pool of 12 mans playing.... so then they will not run up against -MS-, 228, etc, nearly as often.....

More 12 mans playing 12 mans with a bigger pool of small 20-30 man units, to medium 30-50 man units that can field 12 mans on a regular basis, means CW is a better place to play for everyone, but the hard core anti social / anti team work / solo / rambo players, that should Never be playing in a TEAM BASED GAME Mode to began with......

If just a small % of the solo / puggie population we currently have, were given every incentive possible to join a unit and play a Team game as a Coordinated Team, the way the Mode was meant to be, CW would be so much better off.

But MWO seams to have more than its fair share of players with the anti social, anti Team work, Solo / Rambo / Stray Cat / Puggie / Special Snow Flake mentality..... No wander they become baby seals, and then give every lame excuse possible to continue being baby seal - baddies, wanting a solo Q in unit / Team Based Faction WARFARE Mode..........

Actually, PGI did everything int he beginning (with the exception of in game VOIP) to make this a team game.

8v8 mode only all in one queue.

Problems arose when players complained about significant advantages of premades on third party VOIP vs PUG teams that had to communicate with Typed chat. (not enough time to coordinate getting on a 3rd party VOIP until after the match began)

So then they made the 4man limit and opened the 8man queue. Things got a little better, but the problem persisted. New players were thrown directly into the deep end and many were chased off with the steep learning curve. 8 man queue floundered as the elite teams rolled the wanna-be competitive teams and they ran back to the PUG queue (often sync dropping to gain an advantage).

8man queue became 12 man with the move to 12v12 games which basically signed the death warrant of that queue. It became a ghost town. This exacerbated the problems in the PUG queue.

They finally added in VOIP but the pre-mades still had significant advantages over the PUGs because they were used to communicating so they finally brightened up and made a solo only queue.

Then they added in a farce of CW with very poor map design that catered to really only one tactic and playstyle.

PGI has come to realize that the fallacy that they had from day one is they assumed there would be a population that wanted a one dimensional game and would pay enough to support it. Instead they have to balance competing desires in order to maximize revenue. Some want to play on coordinated teams, others want to come in and blow stuff up and could care less for all the coordination. Both sets have wallets. Why would you not want both wallets to open?

As far as wanting a solo mode in CW? Not me, and I haven't played CW since the first week. I think separating the queues will lead to a 12man queue scenario where the wanna-bes leave when they can't compete with the actual elite teams and come running back to the solo area where they will attempt to sync drop for an advantage. So in effect it will hurt everyone.

But then again, I'm not paying for this game any longer, so no skin off my back.

[Mystere]

sycocys, on 14 January 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

This is the sort of thing that would set MWO apart from other games in its attempt to be eSports worthy and give it some of that TT/BT flair and drive some interest in its competition level mode.

Making CW eSports is one of the worst things PGI can do.

[Mystere]

Fen Tetsudo, on 14 January 2016 - 04:23 AM, said:

We can't stop people from exploiting or cheating either. That doesn't mean PGI should stop work on this game.

Assuming we get a solo queue in CW, the next thing on the whine list will be a PSR-style matchmaker. Next would be a whole lot of draconian sticks to prevent sync dropping. Finally, CW will look just like the public queues, but with different game modes and maps.

At that point, what other incentive would PGI have to continue development of the game beyond Mech packs and almost meaningless arena matches?

...

Oh! I got it: eSports!

[Flutterguy]

I have very mixed feelings about this. On one hand, splitting the queue will increase wait times and hurt CW as a whole. On the other side I don't see how CJF wouldn't absolutely dominate the PUG queue...