109 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

Are you sure Spawn Locations are all you want to change? I am all for making random spawn locations, but I am more for rolling all game modes into one, making random map generation points, then dropping various types of objectives on the map, from three to seven of them across a possible 20 to 30 objective spawn points. Then, you can leave the team spawns alone, and you'll have completely random games. While we continue to play Skirmish or Assault (which is Skirmish with an objective-based alternative to win), or Conquest (which is Skirmish with five objective-based means of capturing the win, which almost no one uses). Anyway, here is my detail on this subject.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to tell you... I despise Skirmish, and I'll keep my foul language and insults about it out of this.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 22 January 2016 - 06:53 PM.

[Willothius]

Kay Wolf, on 22 January 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

Are you sure Spawn Locations are all you want to change?

I hope they'll also do Dynamic Time of Day; should be easy enough to implement, but gives the entire map a good new feel. Would love to fight in darkness on Alpine!

Edited by Willothius, 24 January 2016 - 06:31 AM.

[TerrasFallen]

Hi all,

Not sure if this has been approached yet, but in regards to the randomized base sites for assault or random set of capture points I always thought it would be at least a fun idea to hide them at first. Set it up so that lights would have to go out and really scout not just for the enemy, but which site the enemy base or capture points had spawned as well so that the time traditionally spent forming up the rest of the group could be used by lights to fill their role as true scouts and skirmishers. Imagine popping over a hill and finding the CP and maybe getting a little something something for discovering it like scouting for mechs but i don't know maybe actually useful toward your game score. Boy wouldn't that be nice for lights huh? On another note though a lot of the fights I am in don't seem to be that affected by the CP's they are just sort of something there ticking away while everyone plays a skirmish mode. I love the thought of randomized sites for bases and CP's, but what I would love to see more is each play mode getting it's own scoring system. If you got more points for winning by cap then you could ever hope to by just killing everyone and make it so the final goal stays the same for the teams even after all the enemy mechs go down that could change play more than anything else. I think CP would really get a kick in the pants from making victory pivotal on getting the points imagine a team goes up for the score early but gets wrecked on the battle field they could still win because their holding actions at the CP stopped the enemy long enough for that last tick even though they all died. On the last note of locations for the CPs in Alpine. Personally I want them set a little further apart but not much. Just enough to break the LoS from one to another. One in a cave under death mountain would be great with the other just slid a little back so the edge peaks out at the other like "Eyyyyy gurl, what chu doin?" ya know, just to tease the other team to come take it while they cap the other CPs. Sorry if i dragged on about what at least a few people would say is unrelated but that's my money worth on it.

God speed tiny dancers.

[Mawai]

I'd like to see 3 or 4 possible sets of spawn points on each map with the exact set of spawn points being chosen randomly at the start of the match.

This avoids the issue of purely random spawns resulting in unfavorable mech placement while increasing the replayability a bit by offering up a variety of spawn options.

In addition, if the spawn areas for a team were a large distance from the spawn areas for the other team, which is quite possible on alpine, then the starting spawn points for each team could be independently randomly selected so that there would be a large number of combinations of starting points for each side which could result in more variation of game play.

You could use whatever sets of suggestions are made for starting points and incorporate all of them in such a system.

Edited by Mawai, 26 January 2016 - 04:22 PM.

[Jables McBarty]

For Conquest:

LCCX's analysis of Conquest is pretty accurate. In my experience the team that starts with Gamma loses 90% of the time:

1. Gamma team commits to the valley because Gamma is too far from the main action to defend.
2. Sigma team sends a single fast light to cap Gamma (which is very close to their Alpha lance spawnpoint), giving them a 2:0 lead for the first two minutes. If Gamma attempts to defend they split their forces and are wiped in the valley.
3. Sigma team is able to set up a defensive perimeter on the I6 and J7 hills, directly controlling Theta and Kappa, and giving firing lines over Epsi and Sigma. They soon have a 4:0 advantage (G, T, K, and S).
4. Gamma team must either charge into the firing line to take Epsi (giving them 1:4), or flank into Sigma and push into the I6/J7 hill. This is the most successful strategy, but it works only 50% of the time that it is attempted (which is itself maybe 25% of the time)

So while I can get behind the "unique gameplay" that you get from Alpine Peaks Conquest, it definitely does need to be changed because it is so unbalanced.

I'd prefer to see the cap points spread out, but wouldn't be upset if we saw a compact Conquest map like what Divine Evil and Padebra proposed, where it at least becomes balanced. Because there is something to be said for attempting to control a single portion of the map.

I think Polar Highlands has produced an interesting dynamic where about 50% of my games on itend up with Theta being uncapped, and both teams setting up firing lines at H6 for a brawl for control of the NW portion of the map. Whoever wins the brawl gets to send lights to take Theta; whoever sacrifices the manpower to take Theta before the brawl loses it and then the match. So even though the cap points are spread out (and neither team gets a major advantage a la AP), teams are still fighting to control a single region.

Other Comments:

Like what Wildstreak said, if the Random Spawnpoints isn't possible, then making the three modes have very different spawn points is a good idea (for all maps!). For Example, making Assault exist on a N/S axis, Skirmish on an E/W axis, and maybe Conquest being localized to one corner or spreading them out to get people into the underused portions of the map.

I like the ideas that keep the teams more separated and force them to search for enemy. Worst part about Frozen City is that the Charlie Lances meet up in the C4/D5 intersection 90% of games--don't let that happen on the new Alpine!

Don't worry about the mountain. A coordinated PUG team can assault the mountain with little difficulty.

Edited by Jables McBarty, 27 January 2016 - 11:07 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

@Tina: a couple user-generated map discussions that are quite topical regarding spawnpoints and balance:

https://mwomercs.com...other-maps-etc/
https://mwomercs.com...ate-discussion/

[Wibbledtodeath]

Just watched the Warhammer NGNG preview (yes I am late to the party) during which Tina provided feedback re this thread.

@ Tina. I know you have collected the data already, and seemed to feel that the verdict was: A)spawning closer together was good (and it is generally, especially for assaults) and that B: random distributed spawn locations for lances (while a much discussed idea) worried you as it seems the antithesis of point A above. However, this is not always the case- both can work well in different game modes.

I would like to to encourage you to give random lance drop locations a go.

Random dropzones, utilising the alpine map- even if it did result in a fair number of uneven battles- would really make a very special mode (ideal for skirmish) with a lot of re-playability. And we need more special game modes because veteran players have done the 12v12 x # maps x 3 modes things over an over (and over and over) thousands of times in every combination. Something random, where we don't know the location of every spawn, would be amazing (especially in group play- drop commanders would have to really think on their feet!) and would be reusing this great map/asset which does not conform well to the static modes we have currently.

Yes some people will hate it (including me at times when my assault gets a bum drop zone)- but that's what you get with variety- some things not immediately to your taste all the time. However, its better than eating only the same meal forever. I would much rather play an occasional game where the odds were stacked against me than not have different game experiences at all. Don't limit the scope of your great game, without variety MWO will perish (and that's why the vote system was implemented in the first place, to enable more game modes- this seems like a good starting place).

Edited by Wibbledtodeath, 03 February 2016 - 05:49 AM.

[Invictus XVII]

Remove this map from the que, its an abomination, unless you fix so you can choose your loadout before a drop this map should not be in rotation.

The team with most largelasers, gauss and LRM wins.
In faction warfare, its heavily tilted on Clans side.

Any gamemodes besides skirmish is absolute garbage on this map, due to reasons stated above.

[BlackDeathLegion]

I think PGI should just go back to the old days when all 12 mechs dropped in the same spot @ start. Over the last oh 3 YEARS of how spawn drop/points have been, it never changed anything. If anything, the opposite effect happened. **** got worse! IE: Assault lance spawns waaaay out there, near the enemy light/fast lance and just gets KILLED in 5 secs, then its 8v12 "GG".

[Barkem Squirrel]

I still think a more north south on the left side of the map would work, especially with the dish for domination in that one cap point on the side. Still the edges of this map are worth fighting in. That is the one strong point of this map. Now with stealth armor they will never see you. It was a great map, but now battles are focus in just a few areas. Conquest is about the best on this map, domination still needs to be removed from the area it is in now. Assault should go back to what it was f11 and j5. skirmish, well, drop both teams above the G line just to see what we get.

But never go back to the way conqest was orignally on this map, AUGH

Edited by Barkem Squirrel, 11 December 2017 - 03:28 PM.