50 replies to this topic

[Lorian Sunrider]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 15 January 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

We should. But I am flat bad in the Vindi with a flat 1 W/L and flat 1 K/D and only averaging 256 damage a match.

That is practically a top ten percent Vindi player with those numbers

[kapusta11]

And reduce heat by 10%

[Kristian Radoulov]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 January 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

Yes, because arms races have worked so well in the past.

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here. Care to elaborate?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

kapusta11, on 15 January 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

And reduce heat by 10%

The larger IS lasers are cool running enough with the LL and LPL being 7 heat and the ERLL being 8. The ML and SL at 4 and 2 though? Too high and needs to go back down to 3 and 2, IMO.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristian Radoulov, on 15 January 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here. Care to elaborate?

Adding new weapons to "balance" things really isn't balance, it is powercreep, and it is what got us where we are now.

[5LeafClover]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 January 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

Seems like a 15-16% range increase is appropriate across the board, with some quirks on mediums and lights, and maybe the occasional heavy.

I would increase the cER LL range a little bit as well in that case though.

It would be more honest and transparent this way.

Thing is, you either need to allow this buff to be applied to the high tier mechs that didn't yet have the 10+ % range quirks, or else give them -ve range quirks from the new baseline range and cause RAGE!!!!

It does go to show though that they've totally tangled weapon balance with chassis balance. If only they'd decoupled it by balancing weapons first, then only needing minor general quirks for the tier differences between variants.

So we have quirks that are simultaneously trying to do chassis balance, weapon balance and flavour/role differentiation, which are all things the game needs, but it's done in a chaotic, interlinked mess. You simply can't afford to have this interaction when you're trying to manage the balance of 300ish (and growing) mech variants.

Edited by 5LeafClover, 15 January 2016 - 02:53 PM.

[Kristian Radoulov]

5LeafClover, on 15 January 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

So we have quirks that are simultaneously trying to do chassis balance, weapon balance and flavour/role differentiation, which are all things the game needs, but it's done in a chaotic, interlinked mess. You simply can't afford to have this interaction when you're trying to manage the balance of 300ish (and growing) mech variants.

So much truth here.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 15 January 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

The larger IS lasers are cool running enough with the LL and LPL being 7 heat and the ERLL being 8. The ML and SL at 4 and 2 though? Too high and needs to go back down to 3 and 2, IMO.

A small range buff for the IS Small Lasers is probably worthwhile as well.

At least my Commando's would like it

Edited by Lorian Sunrider, 15 January 2016 - 02:56 PM.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 January 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

Adding new weapons to "balance" things really isn't balance, it is powercreep, and it is what got us where we are now.

Maybe I'm dense, but I just don't see how putting IS on equal range footing for mid-range trading so we can remove most of the energy quirks on chassis is a powercreep issue given that the meta IS energy chassis already have enough range quirks to put them on equal footing with clantech. It just allows the IS chassis that aren't superquirked to be on more even footing imo if we introduce the IS ERML. .02

[Lorian Sunrider]

Kristian Radoulov, on 15 January 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Maybe I'm dense, but I just don't see how putting IS on equal range footing for mid-range trading so we can remove most of the energy quirks on chassis is a powercreep issue given that the meta IS energy chassis already have enough range quirks to put them on equal footing with clantech. It just allows the IS chassis that aren't superquirked to be on more even footing imo if we introduce the IS ERML. .02

For what its worth, Russ was saying on Twitter that a time skip was likely, but just not in the "near" future.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Kristian Radoulov, on 15 January 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Maybe I'm dense, but I just don't see how putting IS on equal range footing for mid-range trading so we can remove most of the energy quirks on chassis is a powercreep issue given that the meta IS energy chassis already have enough range quirks to put them on equal footing with clantech. It just allows the IS chassis that aren't superquirked to be on more even footing imo if we introduce the IS ERML. .02

The IS ERML really isn't all that. It's 360m, 5 damage, 5 heat. The current IS ML is 270m, 5 damage, 4 heat. If you add in at least a 10% range quirk (and roughly half the mechs in the game have that, with about 1/5 having 20% IS ML range) on top of the 10% range module we have the IS ML at 324m, 5 damage, 4 heat. If the mech has specific ML quirks like the BK or BLR-1G, you're looking at 351m, 5 damage, 3.2 heat IS MLs in the case of the BLR-1G.

If the IS ERML was closer in performance to the cERML instead of a straight up 40% heat increase for 33% range increase, it would be worth it. As is now? I'd rather get what we have balanced first.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristian Radoulov, on 15 January 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Maybe I'm dense, but I just don't see how putting IS on equal range footing for mid-range trading so we can remove most of the energy quirks on chassis is a powercreep issue given that the meta IS energy chassis already have enough range quirks to put them on equal footing with clantech. It just allows the IS chassis that aren't superquirked to be on more even footing imo if we introduce the IS ERML. .02

The IS needed powercreep because the Clans ARE powercreep themselves. The problem with trying to add weapons to compete with Clan tech is you invalidate all the old weapons, which is kinda silly since by adding newer tech, the Clans do get Heavy lasers which are two IS lasers for the tonnage of 1 with a little extra heat (1 for S/M and 2 for L) and criticals. Meaning you still suffer from powercreep. Basically they are still going to need quirks because even with newer tech the IS is not on equal footing, they are just able to play the same style (just with more units).

Long story short, adding new tech isn't a solution, it is a bandaid.

[VorpalAnvil]

Lorian Sunrider, on 15 January 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

For what its worth, Russ was saying on Twitter that a time skip was likely, but just not in the "near" future.

Yeah, that'll likely happen the exact moment they run out of 3050 mechs to peddle.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 January 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

The IS needed powercreep because the Clans ARE powercreep themselves.

I'm not disagreeing with that at all, I was just coming at this from the POV that the (powercreep aka clan) ship has already sailed so we might as well try balancing apples to apples (ER weapons to ER weapons), rather than trying to balance apples to oranges (ER weapons vs STD). I agree that the IS will always need quirks, but I'd rather have certain weapons systems become obsolete rather than entire chassis written off because they don't have the "right" or "enough" quirks.

I think people come to play mechs here, not weapon systems for the most part, although I'm sure there are those people that are brawlers or snipers, etc. by nature and only play mechs that suit their playstyle.

[Lorian Sunrider]

VorpalAnvil, on 15 January 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

Yeah, that'll likely happen the exact moment they run out of 3050 mechs to peddle.

At least ones that people still give a **** about lol.

[valrond]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 15 January 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

I'd be fine with a simple ~10% boost to be perfectly honest. A bit more in the case of certain IS lasers, like pushing the SPL to 150m, the SL to 175m, the ML to 300m, the MPL to 250m, the LL to 500m, and the ERLL to 700m. I wouldn't mind actually seeing a drop to 350m for the IS LPL, though.

And for the cERLL? I'd rather see a drop in the duration to 1.25s, to be honest.

EDIT: Should also add that the SL and ML need to go back to 1 heat and 3 heat respectively as well as dropping the heat gen quirks across the board IMO.

Sorry, but some of those weapons had their range buffed already. The original range of the SL and SPL was 90m, the MPL, 180m, and the ERLL 570m. So you want a weapon that weighs 0.5 tons, does 3 damage for 1 heat, and has 175m range. We had our 9 SL Hunchie 4P back in the day.

Quirks were introduced to balance the different chassis, not to further buff the IS.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

valrond, on 15 January 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

We had our 9 SL Hunchie 4P back in the day.

Yeah, back in the days before DHS and engine caps.....let that sink in a bit.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 15 January 2016 - 04:18 PM.

[Mcgral18]

valrond, on 15 January 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

Sorry, but some of those weapons had their range buffed already. The original range of the SL and SPL was 90m, the MPL, 180m, and the ERLL 570m. So you want a weapon that weighs 0.5 tons, does 3 damage for 1 heat, and has 175m range. We had our 9 SL Hunchie 4P back in the day.

Quirks were introduced to balance the different chassis, not to further buff the IS.

The 9SL Hunchie with a 300+ engine and bad hitreg.
It would die very quickly in this day and age, especially without quirks.


I don't fear the sub 200M 27 damage from a 50 tonner.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

valrond, on 15 January 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

Sorry, but some of those weapons had their range buffed already. The original range of the SL and SPL was 90m, the MPL, 180m, and the ERLL 570m. So you want a weapon that weighs 0.5 tons, does 3 damage for 1 heat, and has 175m range. We had our 9 SL Hunchie 4P back in the day.

Quirks were introduced to balance the different chassis, not to further buff the IS.

Mcgral18, on 15 January 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

The 9SL Hunchie with a 300+ engine and bad hitreg.
It would die very quickly in this day and age, especially without quirks.


I don't fear the sub 200M 27 damage from a 50 tonner.

Considering the Nova can take 6 cERSLs reach out to 200m with 30 damage for only 16.2 heat versus the 9 SL Hunchie with it's range of 135m with 27 damage for 18 heat? Yeah... even worse off when the Nova can do it twice.

[Khobai]

Quote

Maybe it's time to just push the range of IS lasers up a bit and do away with the range quirks with the exception of a few rare chassis?

Makes far more sense to lower the range on clan lasers and do away with IS range quirks

because clan lasers are way too good compared to other clan weapons