142 replies to this topic

[Lostdragon]

AC and PPC velocities are stupid slow. It ruins immersion for me, especially for the AC20.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 17 January 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

I'm fine with C/ERPPC getting more velocity than regular PPC, but PGI should have the ER version of PPC to have minimum range and remove it from the regular PPC.

Or just keep the ERPPC heat high so that short range DPS is limited without requiring stupid mechanics, and they can remove the minimum range on the regular PPC while they are at it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 January 2016 - 08:09 PM.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 January 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

Or just keep the ERPPC heat high so that short range DPS is limited without requiring stupid mechanics.

Speaking of stupid mechanics, I'm still not a fan of normal Peeps doing zero damage at 90m or less...

[El Bandito]

Lostdragon, on 17 January 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

AC and PPC velocities are stupid slow. It ruins immersion for me, especially for the AC20.

FupDup, on 17 January 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

Speaking of stupid mechanics, I'm still not a fan of normal Peeps doing zero damage at 90m or less...

Hear hear.

[Strum Wealh]

FupDup, on 17 January 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

Speaking of stupid mechanics, I'm still not a fan of normal Peeps doing zero damage at 90m or less...

I'd still like to see them go back to the original linear-scaling minimum range mechanic, and then add a toggle & mechanics for the field inhibitor for the standard PPC...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 20 January 2016 - 07:53 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Strum Wealh, on 20 January 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

I'd still like to see them go back to the original linear-scaling minimum range mechanic, and then add a toggle & mechanics for the field inhibitor for the standard PPC...

Or not waste their time developing adding complexity for an already bad weapon...

[dwwolf]

Minimum range falloff damage would make the weapon less bad. Code already exists for (c) LRMs.

Gauss should get it as well...probably double the 60m that boardgame has. Gauss is close to being a perfect weapon.

[Khobai]

there should just be no minimum range on weapons. period.

its like chargeup. nobody likes the mechanic. so why is it in the game?

And are PPCs and IS LRMs really so overpowered that they need a min range? lol.

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Or just keep the ERPPC heat high so that short range DPS is limited without requiring stupid mechanics, and they can remove the minimum range on the regular PPC while they are at it.

I would rather just see the PPC min range removed completely and give the ERPPC a longer cooldown than the PPC. That would make the PPC better at the midranges.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2016 - 01:30 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 21 January 2016 - 01:28 AM, said:

its like chargeup. nobody likes the mechanic. so why is it in the game?

Gauss chargeup is actually a decent mechanic (IMO) because it:

A. Makes the weapon behave much differently than any other weapon
B. Increases the skill floor + ceiling for the weapon

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 21 January 2016 - 01:28 AM, said:

ERPPC a longer cooldown than the PPC.

That would be acceptable, but as it stands heat is still its most limiting factor.

[Khobai]

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That would be acceptable, but as it stands heat is still its most limiting factor.

longer cooldown means less heat

at 4.0 cooldown its +3.75 heat per second
at 5.0 cooldown its only +3 heat per second

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Gauss chargeup is actually a decent mechanic (IMO) because it:

A. Makes the weapon behave much differently than any other weapon
B. Increases the skill floor + ceiling for the weapon

Nope its a terrible mechanic.

A. Weapons behaving differently is why people boat weapons instead of running mixed loadouts.
B. Lots of people use macros to automate gauss chargeup so it doesnt really increase the skill floor at all. plus the projectile velocity is so high aiming with it is super easy.

You wanna increase the skill floor on gauss properly? then remove chargeup and reduce the projectile velocity so you have to lead targets with it.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 January 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

Or not waste their time developing adding complexity for an already bad weapon...

Yeah; fix the weapon first. Adding complexity (field inhibitor) comes at a high dev cost and is questionable in how possible it is (See: we can't have ammo switching weapons) and adds.... what? Just remove the minimum range and be done with it; though even that isn't going to fix the PPC (though it certainly wouldn't hurt).

Basically, they're just not going to add complex mechanics to a single weapon. Not going to happen.

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 21 January 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

longer cooldown means less heat

at 4.0 cooldown its +3.75 heat per second
at 5.0 cooldown its only +3 heat per second

I'm actually a very big fan of extending cooldowns while buffing weapons. Long cooldown for a powerful weapon works, as it becomes a brutal weapon at range, but can't keep up if pushed. Makes a PPC a great distance trading weapon, but vulnerable up close. That in itself would reduce the "need" for the 90m minimum range: if you've got to wait a long time between firing, then it's not going to be a good brawling weapon regardless.


The same thinking, IMHO, applies to LRM's. Make them stronger, faster - so they're more reliable and dangerous - but make them cycle MUCH slower, so their overall DPS output is lower.

FupDup, on 21 January 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

Gauss chargeup is actually a decent mechanic (IMO) because it:

A. Makes the weapon behave much differently than any other weapon
B. Increases the skill floor + ceiling for the weapon

Yeah, without the chargeup, Gauss was just a very long range zero heat (but slightly less damage) AC20. In practice, it was superior in 100% of situations, even being explosive, as ultimately the Gauss rifle's explosive factor is a buff, not a nerf, vs. the AC20. An exploding Gauss Rifle does just 20 damage, which is trivial in comparison to the 140(typically) damage from an exploding ton of any non-gauss ammo.

[Khobai]

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The same thinking, IMHO, applies to LRM's. Make them stronger, faster - so they're more reliable and dangerous - but make them cycle MUCH slower, so their overall DPS output is lower.

Fixing LRMs is more complicated than that.

But yes increasing the damage per missile and lowering the rate of fire is one of the things missiles need to reduce their spammability and screenshake and increase their armor penetration.

But LRMs have other issues like velocity, ECM, indirect fire balance, that also need to be addressed. There is another topic where this is currently being discussed.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 21 January 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

Nope its a terrible mechanic.

A. Weapons behaving differently is why people boat weapons instead of running mixed loadouts.
B. Lots of people use macro for gauss so it doesnt really increase the skill floor at all.

Macros are a boogeyman, and a lot of the time they can actually make the user perform WORSE. For the Gauss macro, using one means that the player can't cancel a Gauss charge once started, which means that the macro can make them miss in a situation where a non-macro player could just save the shot.

Making weapons behave the same just for "mixed loadouts" reduces the flavor/fun of the game.

Specializing in one particular role will probably always be better than mixed loadouts because your mixed build will be crushed by a specialist operating in its niche bracket. E.g. your mech with a mixture of long range and short range weapons will be killed in close range by a mech with pure brawler guns or you'll be killed at a distance by a mech with pure sniper guns.

Khobai, on 21 January 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

You wanna increase the skill floor on gauss properly? then remove chargeup and reduce the projectile velocity so you have to lead targets with it.

Reduced velocity contradicts the weapon's intended role of long-range fire support/sniper/whatever. Low velocity is for short range weapons or maybe medium range.

We already have an example of this happening in the case of PPCs. Look how that turned out...

[Khobai]

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Reduced velocity contradicts the weapon's intended role of long-range fire support/sniper/whatever.

not really. 2000m/s is excessive. certainly you can lower the velocity below that and still have it fulfill its intended role as a sniper weapon.

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We already have an example of this happening in the case of PPCs. Look how that turned out...

PPCs are an example of the opposite extreme.

Weapons do not have to go one of two extremes: Gauss speed or PPC speed. There is a huge range of numbers in between.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 21 January 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

not really. 2000m/s is excessive. certainly you can lower the velocity below that and still have it fulfill its intended role as a sniper weapon.

You realize how rare Gauss is even for extreme range engagements already? ERLL is the weapon of choice because Gauss is too slow at those ranges. Long range it is ok, but that it is 2000 m/s, the charge doesn't really hurt it their either once you get the hang of it.

Seriously people, stop suggesting lower projectile speeds, there is a reason why lasers are still the weapon of choice, and terrible projectile velocity is a major factor in that reason.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 January 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

You realize how rare Gauss is even for extreme range engagements already? ERLL is the weapon of choice because Gauss is too slow at those ranges. Long range it is ok, but that it is 2000 m/s, the charge doesn't really hurt it their either once you get the hang of it.

Seriously people, stop suggesting lower projectile speeds, there is a reason why lasers are still the weapon of choice, and terrible projectile velocity is a major factor in that reason.

Yup. Lower projectile speeds directly results in lasers becoming better options for medium and long range engagements. As such, reinforcing the laser meta.

That's really the last thing we need.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 21 January 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

longer cooldown means less heat

at 4.0 cooldown its +3.75 heat per second
at 5.0 cooldown its only +3 heat per second

Yes, but you could achieve that through slower firing, which you have to anyway considering the heat. Which is the point I was making, heat is still the biggest limiting factor on the weapon (realized I had forgotten to respond to this).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 January 2016 - 12:33 PM.

[Khobai]

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You realize how rare Gauss is even for extreme range engagements already? ERLL is the weapon of choice because Gauss is too slow at those ranges.

Its not exactly a secret that IS laser quirks need to be nerfed. By making the ERLL only 8 heat, on top of giving it all kinds of superquirks, they turned it into the defacto best long range weapon.

Ranged energy weapons like the ERLL are supposed to cost a massive amount of heat to fire. The ERLL is 12 heat in battletech for a reason. Its to encourage you to use ballistic and missile weapons at long range. Energy weapons should always be worse at long range than ballistic/missile weapons because they cost less tonnage and dont use ammo.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2016 - 12:39 PM.