142 replies to this topic

[Euklides]

I am one that do not mind slow velocities, it adds an additional layer of skill compared to if the velocities would be closer to (practically, not saying that these change would bring it there)hitscan speeds.

I can agree however that the reward/disincentive to using these slower weapons is not on par with that of lasers. If the reward for hitting a difficult shot, I.E more damage was increased, or disincentive for shooting it, I.E heat and ammo was changed to be more forgiving I believe that it is possible to make them different and rewarding. If not just to stop us from making all the weapons the same.

I would implore anyone who thinks hitting ppc (or what ever) at range to try a game (Or look at) called tribes ascend.
I am not bragging, I am quite crappy at ppc's, but I know at least it is not impossible and the only thing that really has to change is my aim.

edit: spelling

Edited by Euklides, 17 January 2016 - 01:11 AM.

[Reza Malin]

El Bandito, on 16 January 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

PGI had nerfed all AC projectile speeds, except AC2, back in 2014, between January and April patches.

AC5 - Projectile speed reduced from 1300m/s to 1150m/s (150m/s decrease)
AC/10 - Projectile speed reduced from 1100m/s to 950m/s (150m/s decrease)
AC/20 - Projectile speed reduced from 900m/s to 650m/s (250m/s decrease)

It was done mostly to nerf the poptarts who were coupling those ACs with PPCs. The poptarts are mostly gone, but the nerf remains. Would bringing back the previous AC velocity for both the IS and Clan a good idea in light of the persistent laser-vomit meta? Or is the TTK already too low and such amount of increase will only make things worse? AC velocity quirks will have to be rebalanced, of course.

Discuss.

I hear you. However, you haven't said why? What is the need to revert the current values?

If anything, i feel they should stay the way they are now, especially as there are a number of chassis types that can boat large numbers of ballistics, far more severe examples than were around when these changes were made.

Everyone is used to the current velocity of ballistics, i dont see the purpose in reverting it. For the record, i use A LOT of AC's and my most regular choice is an AC20 so this proposal would suit me fine if that was all i cared about.

Edited by Fade Akira, 17 January 2016 - 01:11 AM.

[El Bandito]

Fade Akira, on 17 January 2016 - 01:10 AM, said:

I hear you. However, you haven't said why? What is the need to revert the current values?

The reason is because the poptarts that were abusing the AC+PPC are largely gone after PPC and JJ nerfs, and the current meta is overwhelmingly dominated by laser-vomit. Also ballistic max range have been nerfed from 3x to 2x so they are not that abuseable anymore. So why not give ACs a hand?

Edited by El Bandito, 17 January 2016 - 01:21 AM.

[Reza Malin]

El Bandito, on 17 January 2016 - 01:17 AM, said:

The reason is because the poptarts that were abusing the AC+PPC are largely gone after PPC and JJ nerfs, and the current meta is overwhelmingly dominated by laser-vomit. Also ballistic max range have been nerfed from 3x to 2x so they are not that abuseable anymore. So why not give ACs a hand?

I don't know, probably because i don't think dire wolves and king crabs need much help at the moment. All i see is those mechs already boating large ballistic builds or other mechs that now have ridiculous ballistic quirks. Dragon, Cataphract, blackjack, mauler, JAGERCHEESE, the list goes on.

As i said, some of these chassis types werent around when they first nerfed AC's. There certainly were not any ballistic quirks like there are now.

Why trade one ballistic abuse for another? Poptarts as it was, now to be vastly quirked or ballistic heavy powerhouses?

EDIT: Ill take laser vomit over more front loading damage any day. More velocity means better accuracy. My dual ac20 mauler already slags solo mechs ridiculously quick

Edited by Fade Akira, 17 January 2016 - 01:54 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 January 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

Heat isn't what stops AC+energy builds. Ok maybe I lied a little, for Clan dakka it is a limiting factor, but one of the most restricting factors with IS ACs is not heat outside of the 20, it is definitely velocity. 1 heat isn't the only reason Gauss + lasers worked so well, it was because of the velocity. They could have increase Gauss heat to AC20 levels and all people would've done is drop an ERML for an extra DHS and run with it. Velocity to be used at optimal ranges is what has kept the Gauss in play for a long time, negligible heat is just a bonus.

But Clan mechs are the ones that predominantly used laser+gauss, surely? I don't recall that being so popular on IS mechs, except the King Crab and Misery.

Anyway, I don't agree that it was because of the velocity, I think it was the DPS. As soon as cooldown was nerfed, gauss rifles basically disappeared. The lower DPS made gauss+laser less attractive.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 January 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

Slight note, Gauss isn't even that fast anymore, there is a reason is more typical to see pure ERLL than mix ERLL and Gauss. I know Gauss hasn't been nerfed in velocity but the average engagement range has increased since glory days of the Goosapult so I'm sure you can guess why people just run with straight ERLL vomit for extreme range fights.

Are you talking about CW now? Because I rarely see this kind of gameplay outside CW. Kind of hard to talk about the meta when CW is so different from pub matches.

[El Bandito]

Fade Akira, on 17 January 2016 - 01:31 AM, said:

I don't know, probably because i don't think dire wolves and king crabs need much help at the moment. All i see is those mechs already boating large ballistic builds or other mechs that now have ridiculous ballistic quirks. Dragon, Cataphract, blackjack, mauler, JAGERCHEESE, the list goes on.

As i said, some of these chassis types werent around when they first nerfed AC's. There certainly were not any ballistic quirks like there are now.

Why trade one ballistic abuse for another? Poptarts as it was, now to be vastly quirked or ballistic heavy powerhouses?

EDIT: Ill take laser vomit over more front loading damage any day.

Dire Wolves are already hard hit by the skill tree nerf due to fixed 300 engine. As for the King Crab, PGI can just take away it ballistic velocity quirks in response.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 January 2016 - 01:43 AM.

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 17 January 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

Dire Wolves are already hard hit by the skill tree nerf due to fixed 300 engine. As for the King Crab, PGI can just take away it ballistic velocity quirks in response.

Yeah, the Dire Wolf is certainly no longer the threat it once was. Dangerous, but so flawed.

Velo buffs are not a threat with heavily quirked mechs for the reason Mr. Bandito gives above: You can simply reduce the quirk to taste.

Failing to adjust weapon base stats because a quirked mech may get OP is deeply flawed reasoning and deserves punches. It's trivial to reduce a quirk, and we want to rely less on massively quirked mechs whenever possible anyways.

No other Clan Mechs can really boat ballistics, and even those that do aren't getting more accurate PPFLD, what with their burst autocannons.

IS mechs do get more accurate PPFLD, but again - it's not like ballistics are ruling the battlefield IS side, and if it DOES give them an unfair advantage, Ballistic quirks can be further reduced/clan ballistics can be buffed/etc.

[Reza Malin]

Wintersdark, on 17 January 2016 - 01:53 AM, said:

Yeah, the Dire Wolf is certainly no longer the threat it once was. Dangerous, but so flawed. Velo buffs are not a threat with heavily quirked mechs for the reason Mr. Bandito gives above: You can simply reduce the quirk to taste. Failing to adjust weapon base stats because a quirked mech may get OP is deeply flawed reasoning and deserves punches. It's trivial to reduce a quirk, and we want to rely less on massively quirked mechs whenever possible anyways. No other Clan Mechs can really boat ballistics, and even those that do aren't getting more accurate PPFLD, what with their burst autocannons. IS mechs do get more accurate PPFLD, but again - it's not like ballistics are ruling the battlefield IS side, and if it DOES give them an unfair advantage, Ballistic quirks can be further reduced/clan ballistics can be buffed/etc.

Deserves punches? Lol what?

This whole topic sounds like a whim request to me in truth.

I ask again, what is the need to even increase AC velocity values right now? I don't have an issue with them, and i also don't see many people having an issue with them.

You would rather we start now messing with these values, when there is nothing really wrong with them, and then alter quirks in respect to that? That sounds flawed to me.

Give me a real valid reasoning why we need to mess with AC velocities now. Not "they were nerfed because poptarts". That was years ago now, its been and gone. The values are fine as they are in my opinion unless there is some huge issue i haven't come across?

Edited by Fade Akira, 17 January 2016 - 02:12 AM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

El Bandito, on 16 January 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

PGI had nerfed all AC projectile speeds, except AC2, back in 2014, between January and April patches.

AC5 - Projectile speed reduced from 1300m/s to 1150m/s (150m/s decrease)
AC/10 - Projectile speed reduced from 1100m/s to 950m/s (150m/s decrease)
AC/20 - Projectile speed reduced from 900m/s to 650m/s (250m/s decrease)

It was done mostly to nerf the poptarts who were coupling those ACs with PPCs. The poptarts are mostly gone, but the nerf remains. Would bringing back the previous AC velocity for both the IS and Clan a good idea in light of the persistent laser-vomit meta? Or is the TTK already too low and such amount of increase will only make things worse? AC velocity quirks will have to be rebalanced, of course.

Discuss.

I'd like to point out that PPC and AC5 have the same velocity (near enough as makes no difference) and there's really no PPC poptarting to speak of. Outside of Novas, Hunchback IICs, sad cats and the odd shadowhawk there really aren't any poptarts at all.Which I'm fine with because poptarting was stupid.

[El Bandito]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 17 January 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

I'd like to point out that PPC and AC5 have the same velocity (near enough as makes no difference) and there's really no PPC poptarting to speak of. Outside of Novas, Hunchback IICs, sad cats and the odd shadowhawk there really aren't any poptarts at all.Which I'm fine with because poptarting was stupid.

The PPCs and JJs were nerfed compared to 2013 so no surprise there.

[Wintersdark]

Fade Akira, on 17 January 2016 - 02:00 AM, said:

.

I ask again, what is the need to even increase AC velocity values right now? I don't have an issue with them, and i also don't see many people having an issue with them.

Except for that ballistics are objectively worse than lasers right now, and have been for a long time. As has been said time and time again: A given player's ability to "do fine with them" is irrelevant. Here, we're looking at bulk stats. In particular, the dominant meta. It becomes that simply because those "meta" builds are the best builds. Maybe not for you specifically, but for players overall.

If ballistics where fine, you'd see a lot more ballistic builds on Metamechs.

Quote

You would rather we start now messing with these values, when there is nothing really wrong with the, and then alter quirks in respect to that? That sounds flawed to me.

Except you specifically are hardly an authority here on whether or not there is nothing wrong with them. You are a sample size of one.

You'd only alter quirks if the sum would be problematic - for example, the King Crab doesn't need ballistic velocity quirks AND buffed ballistic velocity over all.

Quote

Give me a real valid reasoning why we need to mess with AC velocities now. Not "they were nerfed because poptarts". That was years ago now, its been and gone. The values are fine as they are in my opinion unless there is some huge issue i haven't come across?

Because as I said above, ballistics are measurably inferior to lasers. That's it right there.

Velocity's one option - a good one, to have them function better at range. Right now, heavy ballistics (ac10, ac20) are significantly less accurate than PPC's, and PPC's are extremely rarely seen themselves unless.... The mech has ppc velocity quirks.

Heat is another: ballistics are supposed to be very cool, after all. But velocity is more likely, as you'd just be rolling back (maybe just partially) one of several nerfs that resulted in the laser meta we have today.

[Reza Malin]

Wintersdark, on 17 January 2016 - 02:10 AM, said:

Except you specifically are hardly an authority here on whether or not there is nothing wrong with them. You are a sample size of one.

So are you mate, what is your point? Its a forum, we are discussing our mutual viewpoints. What gives your opinon more worth than mine? Are you going to link me a petition to PGI to alter AC velocity values or something? If not, then its your opinon, and my opinon. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ballistics are fine, if anyone thinks otherwise they probably need to improve their accuracy, aim off at long range for drop over distance or lead moving targets more.

The reason there is so much laser vomit is because they are lighter and smaller than ballistics. I remember when everyone was complaining the meta game was all about front loaded pinpoint damage, and those were bad times. Now we have lots of lasers, which require a full burn to do max damage and a steady hand rather than pop tarting or pinpoint alpha shooting and people are complaining again.

Because they are smaller and lighter, lasers should always be more common than ballistics or PPC. What are you looking for? An exact split of lasers over ballistics? I am pretty sure energy hardpoints are also the most common on most chassis types. So your argument is flawed in my OPINION.

Shall we propose to change SRM velocity now too because there are more laser builds than SRM builds? I don't see how there is an issue with ballistics. They have low heat, good damage and to compensate, they take some skill to aim effectively. Thats what they are and thats where they are currently at. Increasing velocity just makes it more likely everyone will start abusing them and their low heat to lower the TTK even further than it already is.

Edited by Fade Akira, 17 January 2016 - 02:28 AM.

[kapusta11]

Although I support the idea it's likely not going to happen. Too many players were violated by people with AC and PPC barrels in the past.

[Wolfways]

Yes please buff the most powerful weapons in the game, my Jager will be very happy. I'll still only worry about other Jagers and King Crabs while in my Jager

[El Bandito]

Wolfways, on 17 January 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:

Yes please buff the most powerful weapons in the game, my Jager will be very happy. I'll still only worry about other Jagers and King Crabs while in my Jager

Jager ballistic quirks will be lowered/removed if this change happens so don't celebrate just yet.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 January 2016 - 03:49 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 January 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

Forget that, I want ACs to actually be useful at their optimal ranges. WTB MW4-esque velocities.

Here is a nice little reference for Paul since he likes spreadsheets:
For every 150m of range a non-missile projectile has, it gains 500 m/s velocity. So weapons like the AC20 would have 1000 m/s velocity, PPCs and AC5s would have near 1500 m/s speed. ERPPCs and AC2s would have decent speeds of 2500 m/s because well, let's face it, they are kind of bad weapons. Granted this still doesn't put it up to par with MW4 speeds so those worried about this making the game "too easy" (aka the main reason lasers are meta right now) can chill out a bit. Though Clan dakka may need a slight nerf if this were to make it live.

Agreed with everything except your last line. Clan dakka still needs a velocity bump. I'm glad they got the burst duration down. I was pushing for that, and reduced shell count, back before they did that, and I still think it made the largest impact on C-UAC usability, however I never disagreed that a velocity increase was needed - just that at the time it was a one or the other sort of thing (reduced burst through any means, OR increased velocity). After all, we're still firing UAC5 as a pair of UAC2.5 at UAC5 velocities, firing a UAC10 as three UAC 3.33 at UAC10 velocities, and UAC20 as four UAC5 at UAC20 velocities. They also jam a little too much to keep pumping out damage reliably.

It might not need to be ultra buffed, but you're also still paying for burst in increased face time and multiple shells that can spread. Dire Wolf could always be slapped with ballistic cooldown negative quirks on the Bravo side torsos if concern about the one and only mech that can honestly boat them to an extreme extent is warranted, but the mech is practically a turret right now. More effective Clan Dakka means you won't need to boat them to make them worth taking. If a pair is good enough than it reaches rough parity with IS UACs.

All that said, I don't think ERPPC should be moving at Gauss speed. That's just silly fast. I would hesitate to make them move faster than 1500, honestly. Fast enough to hit distant targets, but slow enough you need to actually get a feel for the lead. Of course, I am also a proponent for Clan ERPPC being hot, slower gauss rifles (with perhaps a closer range of optimal usability) more in tune with their background.

Edited for grammatical errors.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 January 2016 - 04:59 AM.

[jss78]

Looking at the Dec 1st quirk values, it strikes me how common ballistic velocity quirks are. To me this definitely hints at what should be done as far as the base weapon characteristics.

Same with PPCs -- with those omnipresent 30-50% velocity quirks, why not put that 30% (or so) in the weapon itself?

[Pariah Devalis]

jss78, on 17 January 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

Looking at the Dec 1st quirk values, it strikes me how common ballistic velocity quirks are. To me this definitely hints at what should be done as far as the base weapon characteristics.

Same with PPCs -- with those omnipresent 30-50% velocity quirks, why not put that 30% (or so) in the weapon itself?

Edit: I hate that this image isn't using "it's."

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 January 2016 - 05:35 AM.

[Reza Malin]

All this thread sounds like to me is various people wanting it to be easier for them to sit back and snipe across the map with tons of low heat, rapid fire pinpoint damage. If you want your clan ballistics to be on par with IS, well im sorry they shouldnt be. Its the only real advantage IS mechs have over clans. Clans make up for it by having better energy weapons. Thats how it is and another element they use to balance the factions.

Nothing could be worse for the game than changing this. Please think past your own personal desires for your own mech builds and think of how matches would play out in standard queues and CW. PUGS would sit back even more, 12 mans would be more boring, more PPFLD meta game again.

I mean that comment slightly above this one linked by Pariah, quite frankly is ridiculous. Can't quite believe anyone has entertained it at all. It just tells me people here cant use AC20 or AC10 very often. Once you get used to them they are already ridiculously easy to hit with, especially AC10, but AC20 rounds at 1000m/s????? Lol? Everyone would soon take one that could fit one. Extra velocity on ballistics would change the game back to the bad times when everyone was packing PPFLD and CT's would vanish even quicker than they already do now.

It would indeed, despite that guy saying in his comment it wouldn't, make the game even easier. I mean how can people logically complain about laser vomit and then advocate making ballistics hit so much quicker that they would be significantly more accurate and lethal. The mind boggles.

Someone else, for the love of god, back me up here.

Or do we want a return of the days of people sitting back the whole match exchanging PPC/AC fire? Even poptarts could return to a lesser extent due to the boost in accuracy the velocity boost would bring.

Worst of all, the thing that bugs me the most, is that there is no requirement to boost AC velocity at all. The game is as balanced as it has been for a long time, quirks or not.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 17 January 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

But Clan mechs are the ones that predominantly used laser+gauss, surely? I don't recall that being so popular on IS mechs, except the King Crab and Misery.

Naw, even lower end mechs used it: Zeus, Highlander, Cataphract, etc. If you were a heavy with a ballistic hardpoint a few energy hardpoints, 2-3 LL and Gauss was pretty solid, just not as effective as Clan ERML + Gauss.

Alistair Winter, on 17 January 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

Anyway, I don't agree that it was because of the velocity, I think it was the DPS. As soon as cooldown was nerfed, gauss rifles basically disappeared. The lower DPS made gauss+laser less attractive.

Yeah, the cooldown nerf was too big, but it didn't make people start using Clan dakka, it just made it so they had to rely on pure laser vomit instead.

Alistair Winter, on 17 January 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

Are you talking about CW now? Because I rarely see this kind of gameplay outside CW. Kind of hard to talk about the meta when CW is so different from pub matches.

Look at my post history and see whether I'm talking about CW (hint: no). In pub matches no, the engagement range is still fairly short, but comp on maps like Tourmaline are pretty much go ERLL or go home sort of matches at the moment.