48 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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But that isnt going the SAME speed.

It doesnt matter if its the same speed or not. The % of tonnage a medium spends to go its optimum speed should be almost exactly the same as the % of tonnage the heavy spends to go its optimum speed. thats how a balanced engine tonnage curve should work out. Mediums should not have to sacrifice proportionally more firepower just to go the normal speed theyre supposed to go.

For mediums to go their normal speed theyre they have to sacrifice more of their total tonnage compared to heavies. Because their tonnage is spent less efficiently on engines due to the way the engine tonnage curve is set up. Which is why people are forced to make slower mediums in order to make up for the lack of efficiency that mediums have due to the engine sizes they have to take.

Mediums are way less efficient than Heavies. Its as simple as that. I dunno how else to explain it to you. But thats why Heavies need a speed nerf.

Heavies are currently outright better than every other weight class. Its so obvious that youre biased towards heavies and have absolutely no interest in a balanced game. But the reality is lighter weight classes should go much faster than heavier weight classes. Mediums should go much faster than heavies. Because if you cant outgun something you should be able to outrun it.

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overpowered is the wrong way to look at it. At a certain speed and network latency level, lights teleport all across screens. When you are fighting off two lights who keep teleporting around each other and the environment, its frustrating to waste time shooting at them.

If lights cant go fast they die. If you take their speed away they become pointless. So thats not an option.

heavies on the other hand have plenty of armor so theres no excuse for them to be going 90kph.

Edited by Khobai, 19 January 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[Cold Darkness]

Khobai, on 19 January 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

But the reality is lighter weight classes should go much faster than heavier weight classes. Mediums should go much faster than heavies. Because if you cant outgun something you should be able to outrun it.

absolute nonsense. they shouldnt be faster then heavys by default, they should be more agile. theres a HUGE difference between the two and while you can make something heavy move at the same speed with a bigger engine, you will NEVER get the same agility out of it due to its higher mass. ( unless you crush its pilot during breaking )

Edited by Cold Darkness, 19 January 2016 - 09:54 AM.

[Khobai]

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absolute nonsense. they shouldnt be faster then heavys by default, they should be more agile. theres a HUGE difference between the two and while you can make something heavy move at the same speed with a bigger engine, you will NEVER get the same agility out of it due to its higher mass.

Its not nonsense at all. agility without speed is useless (urbanmech/kitfox prove this). lighter weight classes should have both more agility AND more speed because they have less armor and firepower.

If you allow heavier weight classes to go nearly as fast in addition to having more firepower and armor it completely invalidates lighter weight classes. Which is exactly whats happened in the game now due to fast heavies running rampant


And as ive already pointed out... mediums get screwed for being in one of the least efficient parts of the tonnage curve. MWO has a sweetspot for tonnage (65-75 tons) where engine weight is the most efficient. heavies are in that sweetspot. mediums are not.

Edited by Khobai, 19 January 2016 - 10:01 AM.

[Grimlox]

Outright speed and maneuverability (jumpjets) to get in and out of situations is generally the only thing that allows mediums to fill their niche. Mediums should be able to get into and out of battle quickly so they can take on a skirmisher role... right now most heavies are close enough to medium speed to prevent a medium from disengaging before taking critical damage. Lights are able to do this via their speed and small size (harder to hit). Mediums are big enough to easily hit by anyone that can aim, while lacking he firepower and armour to stand toe to toe with heavies.

I like the idea of cutting the speed tweak off heavies and/or some kind of advanced speed tweak for lights/mediums. At the very least perhaps a better multiplier on cbill/xp rewards for mediums or a bonus to hit and run, flanking, scouting, spotting assist rewards for lighter mechs makes sense. Any time an event is happening where match score/kills/damage are important mediums are just not worth taking. While this may be balanced by trying to match as many similar weight mechs on each side it is still personally shooting yourself in the foot to take a medium into solo or group queue with small groups (where you have the tonnage available).

[Cold Darkness]

Grimlox, on 19 January 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

Any time an event is happening where match score/kills/damage are important mediums are just not worth taking. While this may be balanced by trying to match as many similar weight mechs on each side it is still personally shooting yourself in the foot to take a medium into solo or group queue with small groups (where you have the tonnage available).

i did most of my KMDD thingys with a nova. if i wanted an upgrade to a nova, it would be masc, not speed. masc would be a great addition to the mech because it enhances what the nova does, contrary to more speed, which would not really help in most cases.
sure, there are boom and zoom mediums, but i had the impression they are not supposed to outrun the heavys but to pressure enemy light. like the streak crow. the wish for more speed seems to be a mentallity issue to me. people just want to bumrush the enemy as fast as they can in EVERY mech they play, which is why pug-gameplay is such a horrible experience

also: dont get me wrong, im not saying that heavys are magically fine, im just saying that you might be comparing apples with eggs. well, i guess in the end you eat both, but yeah.

[Roadkill]

MacBeth, on 18 January 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

Thank you for the answer FupDup that is interesting, And I'm sorry for asking, I'm not even remotely savvy to the equations, but going from 54 kph to 48 seems like a whole lot of rounding down rather than up, wouldn't it of been easier just to do a flat 54?

You have it backwards. MWO is using the correct value of 48.6 kph for an Atlas with a 300 engine. That gives it a walking speed of 3 hexes and a running speed of 4.5 hexes.

Except that in a board game, you can't move 4.5 hexes, so tabletop rounds that up to 5. 5 * 10.8 = 54 kph. The correct running speed for an Atlas is 4.5 * 10.8 which is... 48.6 kph.

You'll see the same rounding going on for Mechs that have a walking speed of 5 in the board game. Like the Timber Wolf (MadCat). That makes their running speed 7.5 hexes (81 kph in MWO) which gets rounded up in tabletop to 8 hexes or 86.4 kph.

[Roadkill]

Khobai, on 19 January 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

The % of tonnage a medium spends to go its optimum speed should be almost exactly the same as the % of tonnage the heavy spends to go its optimum speed.

While I agree with you in concept, you're using your own opinion of what constitutes optimum speed for each weight class. Your opinion of optimum speed for a medium is considerably higher than mine.

Per percent of weight, heavies get less speed than mediums or lights because they are farther up the geometric engine weight curve.

[DivineEvil]

Khobai, on 19 January 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Its not nonsense at all. agility without speed is useless (urbanmech/kitfox prove this). lighter weight classes should have both more agility AND more speed because they have less armor and firepower. If you allow heavier weight classes to go nearly as fast in addition to having more firepower and armor it completely invalidates lighter weight classes. Which is exactly whats happened in the game now due to fast heavies running rampant And as ive already pointed out... mediums get screwed for being in one of the least efficient parts of the tonnage curve. MWO has a sweetspot for tonnage (65-75 tons) where engine weight is the most efficient. heavies are in that sweetspot. mediums are not.

Unfortunately no, it is nonsense.

Here are basic charts:



According to them, engines require exponentially more and more tonnage to achieve same additional speed bonuses.

Standard Engines achieve top performance per weight on 170 rating, and XL Engines achive it at 195. After that, efficiency gradually decline, with XLs having a plateau area due to lower weight disparity.

Regardless, mech tonnage is irrelevant for both - relations between rating, weight and resulting speed persist without any connection to it. Mech's tonnage is a divisor, which determines how Engine rating directly translates into an actual speed and movement dynamics.

Nowhere in there, a particular mech class achieves this mythological "sweet spot". Unless, of course you can actually specify what are talking about.

Edited by DivineEvil, 21 January 2016 - 04:30 PM.

[Khobai]

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Regardless, mech tonnage is irrelevant for both - relations between rating, weight and resulting speed persist without any connection to it. Mech's tonnage is a divisor, which determines how Engine rating directly translates into an actual speed and movement dynamics.

Except mech tonnage is not irrelevant. Yes the mech tonnage is a divisor but what youre forgetting is that lighter weight classes are expected to go significantly faster than heavier weight classes.

Because medium mechs are expected to go faster than heavy mechs they have to devote a higher percentage of their overall tonnage to their engine than heavies do. Which means they get proportionally less tonnage for weapons. I have already demonstrated this so I dont understand why you would doubt it, the numbers dont lie, they speak for themselves. In fact your chart supports my findings because it shows that engine weight increases exponentially while engine rating/mech weight increases linearly; which was exactly my whole point.

A medium mech going 90+ kph has to devote a greater percentage of its total tonnage towards its engine than a heavy mech going 70+ kph. And those are generally considered the slowest acceptable speeds those respective weight classes should go.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2016 - 05:45 PM.