46 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

There suggestions reflect what I think PGI might be willing to do.

1. Adjust the heat on Clan mechs. Clan Double Heat Sink capacity should be about -1.2 instead of current -1.1. ( I think I have the current number correct. )

2. Nerf Blackjack Durability to what it was before the big balance pass or something close to it.

3. Buff under performing clan mechs. Ideally this would be buffing a combination of agility, durability and firepower. The goal is to be viable but not OP.

4. Refine buffs so they are for family of weapons. So for example while you would still get universal energy buffs on some mechs they would be divided by percentage. so for example small laser family that includes ER Small, Small, Small Pulse. Same for Mediums, Large and ER large might have its own. This way small pulse could get a larger buff than say ER Lasers on some mechs. But you still are not limiting the chassis to one type of weapon.

Next give it a month or so and see how it is working then make small refining changes.

As a bonus the worst of the IS mechs would be buffed at the same time. Hopefully learning from the last balance pass to get them viable but not OP.

Post your suggestions below.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 23 January 2016 - 06:09 PM.

[Aresye]

They need to scrap the quirks entirely and just normalize the weapons on both sides, then use (minor) quirks on underperformers to bring them up. Perhaps some optional quirks as well for certain mechs that have iconic loadouts (ex: PPC quirks for the Warhammer).

Are you seriously suggesting to nerf Clan mechs even more by lowering their heat cap even further? Did you even see what happened today?

[XX Sulla XX]

Aresye, on 23 January 2016 - 06:03 PM, said:

They need to scrap the quirks entirely and just normalize the weapons on both sides, then use (minor) quirks on underperformers to bring them up. Perhaps some optional quirks as well for certain mechs that have iconic loadouts (ex: PPC quirks for the Warhammer).

Are you seriously suggesting to nerf Clan mechs even more by lowering their heat cap even further? Did you even see what happened today?

Before the last balance pass I suggested over and over again to get weapons balanced. And even more important to balance using the soon to come IS ER Small and ER Medium and XPulse etc. But they did not go that way. So I am suggesting what I think has a chance of getting done.

[El Bandito]

XX Sulla XX, on 23 January 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

1. Adjust the heat on Clan mechs. Clan Double Heat Sink capacity should be about -1.2 instead of current -1.4. ( I think I have the current number correct. )

CDHS is currently at 1.1 capacity and 0.15 dissipation, I believe. Compared to IS DHS which is 1.5 capacity and 0.14 dissipation, but costs three slots instead of two.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 January 2016 - 06:09 PM.

[Vxheous]

Clan double heat sink capacity is currently 1.1, with heat dissipation at 1.5 (old value was 1.4/1.4). Locked engine heat sinks remain 2.0/2.0. IS single heat sinks actually have a higher capacity at the moment at 1.2, with dissipation at 1.0. IS Doubles are 1.5 capacity, 1.4 dissipation, but taking up 3 slots.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 23 January 2016 - 06:08 PM.

[Mystere]

Here you go:

Mystere, on 16 January 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

The general problem I am seeing is that almost everybody, PGI and players alike, are only looking at gear for balance, for an IP that is inherently asymmetrical. It has already failed several times, miserably, and yet people still insist on repeatedly doing the exact same thing -- the definition of insanity.

So why not stop this insanity? Why not have a real balancing system based on more than just gear? Use all of the following, some of which we already have:

• lore-based formations (e.g. X Clan Stars vs. Y IS Lances)
  
• imaginative and possibly asymmetric game modes (eg. siege, recon, escort, search and destroy)
  
• defensive structures (e.g. number of turrets for Clan base vs. IS base)
  
• drop weight (i.e. X Clans vs. Y IS tons and/or X attacker vs. Y defender tons)
  
• respawn size (as reinforcements, different for Clans vs. IS and/or attacker vs. defender)
  
• victory conditions (i.e. different for Clans vs. IS, attacker vs. defender, escort vs. raider)
  
• Mech construction rules
  
• weapon attributes and mechanics
  
• equipment attributes and mechanics
  
• information warfare mechanics (i.e. different for Clans vs. IS)
  
• reward system
  
• etc. etc. etc.

For example, are Clans too strong attacking a base? If so, do one or more of the following:

• reduce Clan drop tonnage
  
• reduce Clan drop size
  
• subtract a Clan binary
  
• increase IS drop tonnage
  
• increase IS drop size
  
• add an IS lance
  
• add more IS defensive structures

And the adjustments don't have to be consistent CW-wide. It can be done on a planet by planet basis, possibly based on the distance between the target world and a capital or strategic planet.



The operative principle is "asymmetry". Tweaking numbers and weights are easier than the never-ending chase for weapons balance.

For some details, go here.

[Mcgral18]

Balance tech properly, not with quirks.

Balance weapons against each other, and not with a dartboard.

Balance mechs against one another, then quirk where needed (like 55 ton mech size'd 50 tonners).


General weapon quirks already exist. From weapon type (Energy) to Family (ER, Pulse, "Laser"), to individual Weapon (Large Laser on the Raven 2X).

[XX Sulla XX]

El Bandito, on 23 January 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

CDHS is currently at 1.1 capacity and 0.15 dissipation, I believe. Compared to IS DHS which is 1.5 capacity and 0.14 dissipation, but costs three slots instead of two.

thanks I had capacity at what it was at one time in the past instead of current. Ment to have it at 1.1. Thanks!

Vxheous Kerensky, on 23 January 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

Clan double heat sink capacity is currently 1.1, with heat dissipation at 1.5 (old value was 1.4/1.4). Locked engine heat sinks remain 2.0/2.0. IS single heat sinks actually have a higher capacity at the moment at 1.2, with dissipation at 1.0. IS Doubles are 1.5 capacity, 1.4 dissipation, but taking up 3 slots.

Yes thanks it was a typo.

Mystere, on 23 January 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

Here you go:

Lots of ideas some good some ok some not so great.

[Monkey Lover]

#2 ha-ha people sure do hate the bj don't they. Anyway you support giving it back all its energy quirks before the last balance pass?

Side note Russ said it will be nerfed.

[XX Sulla XX]

Monkey Lover, on 23 January 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

#2 ha-ha people sure do hate the bj don't they. Anyway you support giving it back all its energy quirks before the last balance pass?

Side note Russ said it will be nerfed.

Yes I know they are going to tone it down some. Probably will be fine then.

[Simbacca]

Mystere, on 23 January 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

Here you go:
-snip-

Supposedly the Devs said 10 (2 Stars) vs 12 (3 Lances) was not possible. But I suggest a work around that does make it possible. While both sides drop with 12 mechs, 2 of the Clan mechs are defaulted to being stationary bots who do nothing. If these bots are the last on team - they self destruct (obviously a script needs to be written for this). Should an IS player come across them - destroying them gives NO C-Bills, XP or Points. As a visual aid to all players - the bot mechs' paint scheme would be yellow.

By having Stars vs Lances could actually make the game modes be part of CW in some way, help immersion, and at least be a little more true to lore. While it would not please everyone, at least it would be an honest attempt to do so. Plus, it would help set the stage for Mercs actually having some sort of value in this game.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

XX Sulla XX, on 23 January 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

1. Adjust the heat on Clan mechs. Clan Double Heat Sink capacity should be about -1.2 instead of current -1.4. ( I think I have the current number correct. )

2. Nerf Blackjack Durability to what it was before the big balance pass or something close to it.

3. Buff under performing clan mechs. Ideally this would be buffing a combination of agility, durability and firepower. The goal is to be viable but not OP.

4. Refine buffs so they are for family of weapons. So for example while you would still get universal energy buffs on some mechs they would be divided by percentage. so for example small laser family that includes ER Small, Small, Small Pulse. Same for Mediums, Large and ER large might have its own. This way small pulse could get a larger buff than say ER Lasers on some mechs. But you still are not limiting the chassis to one type of weapon.

Next give it a month or so and see how it is working then make small refining changes.

As a bonus the worst of the IS mechs would be buffed at the same time. Hopefully learning from the last balance pass to get them viable but not OP.

Post your suggestions below.

1. Heat capacity for clan DHS is 1.1

2. They're doing that

3. Bandaid solutions won't solve the problem. The problem with these mechs are either geometry (ape arms for example), or a result of fixed equipment that isn't worth the tonnage (summoner and executioner JJ and of course MASC). Additionally there is no tradeoff between std structure and armor and endo and ferro. There should be so that those omnis with the standard components

4. Not sure that'll actually help but it'll be interesting to test on the PTS.

[XX Sulla XX]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 23 January 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

1. Heat capacity for clan DHS is 1.1

2. They're doing that

3. Bandaid solutions won't solve the problem. The problem with these mechs are either geometry (ape arms for example), or a result of fixed equipment that isn't worth the tonnage (summoner and executioner JJ and of course MASC). Additionally there is no tradeoff between std structure and armor and endo and ferro. There should be so that those omnis with the standard components

4. Not sure that'll actually help but it'll be interesting to test on the PTS.

1. Typo fixed now.

2. I know

3. For most mechs it will solve the problem. A good example is Quickdraws. They were a terrible oversized, under armored mech with a lack of firepower before. Now they a good mechs and very viable. And I do not think OK except maybe in the ER Large version on some maps. But that could be fixed with more targeted quirks I suggested.

Now some mechs do need a redone etc. The Awesome really needs major changes. But mechs like the Exe can be fixed with better MASC and some quirks.

Also again we have to be practical about what they might or might not do and when.

[Jess Hazen]

Aresye, on 23 January 2016 - 06:03 PM, said:

They need to scrap the quirks entirely and just normalize the weapons on both sides, then use (minor) quirks on underperformers to bring them up. Perhaps some optional quirks as well for certain mechs that have iconic loadouts (ex: PPC quirks for the Warhammer).

Are you seriously suggesting to nerf Clan mechs even more by lowering their heat cap even further? Did you even see what happened today?

Liked when I saw scrap the quirks entirely, Unliked when I saw use minor quirks. Rip in pepperonis.

[cSand]

Simbacca, on 23 January 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

Supposedly the Devs said 10 (2 Stars) vs 12 (3 Lances) was not possible. But I suggest a work around that does make it possible. While both sides drop with 12 mechs, 2 of the Clan mechs are defaulted to being stationary bots who do nothing. If these bots are the last on team - they self destruct (obviously a script needs to be written for this). Should an IS player come across them - destroying them gives NO C-Bills, XP or Points. As a visual aid to all players - the bot mechs' paint scheme would be yellow.

Well, the reason they can't/won't do it isn't cause they can't actually field 2 uneven teams, they can easily put 10 in one side and 12 in another.

The reason is that it will F**K this game in it's already hurting little butt. 10 v 12 was a hacked together bandaid solution to begin with all those years ago, worse than quirks, worse than ghost heat, worse than anything PGI has done. And it existed solely because not even the people who wrote Battletech knew how to deal with OP Clan mechs they had created. The idea is so stupidly inane on so many levels: ultimate vat grown warriors for an advanced and warlike society who want to invade and subdue the entire Inner Sphere, ok cool. But you know guys, we don't wanna be too hard on our enemies so let's deliberately gimp ourselves.... said no invasionary force, ever. So they stuck some crock about Zellbrigen and this BS honor system to make it easier to swallow but ultimately it was just poorly conceived and executed drivel to try to sell more BT packs and novels. I guess you could use the limited supply lines as an excuse, but that's reaching and still, what kind of force goes to conquer a million planets and is like "oh man, I guess we shoulda thought about supplies before we got here! I knew we forgot something!"

As reading material, or single player game material, it works and is great. In a PvP game (tabletop or PC ), it's the worst idea, and basically just caters to lore-hungry neckbeards who would rather have a sh*te game that sticks to lore than a fun game that bends the rules a bit.

So you know, I do think PGI made a bad choice on the timeline they chose. They chose the hardest era in the BT timeline to balance because of the lore part.
IMO they should have stuck to one of the following:
- earlier in the timeline (no Clan mechs) For example, any of the huge wars before the Clam invasion.
- much later, where high tech stuff was available on both sides (Dark Ages?)


But, I too have a good work around for implementing 10 v 12 and here it is:

Not ever implementing it in this game period. And thank the good mechajesus Russ and PGI firmly agree with me. PGI may do a bunch of wacky stuff, but choosing to try to balance Clan vs IS by making them equal but different was a rock solid decision. And honeslty it is working out pretty well. The sides as such are fairly balanced, now it is the time to start fine tuning individual chassis to bring the under-performers up and the handful of clearly OP mechs down to size a bit.

Edited by cSand, 23 January 2016 - 07:23 PM.

[Moldur]

Quirks might have a place here and there, but first I think we ought to go back to the way it used to be. We should just let good mechs be good and bad mechs be bad.

When we start trying to normalize every mech in the game with all of its competitors, putting quirk onto quirk onto quirk, it becomes a ridiculous juggling act. It is like messing with a foodweb. The secondary, much less the tertiary and quaternary effects of our meddling are entirely unforseen.



We ought to let "nature" run its course, imo.

Edited by Moldur, 23 January 2016 - 08:05 PM.

[Aresye]

cSand, on 23 January 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

And honeslty it is working out pretty well. The sides as such are fairly balanced, now it is the time to start fine tuning individual chassis to bring the under-performers up and the handful of clearly OP mechs down to size a bit.

Yeaaa...nope.

Think I'll wait for TheSilken to make an official post, but today's balance test shows otherwise:
https://www.reddit.c...e_in_8_minutes/

[Andi Nagasia]

Give Clan Lasers -1Damage -1Heat, -20% Duration(making Clan Closer to IS, Lower Alphas),
then Give IS Mechs -35% Current Structure Quirks(to Balance with new Reduced Clan Alphas),
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 23 January 2016 - 08:41 PM.

[Mystere]

cSand, on 23 January 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

But, I too have a good work around for implementing 10 v 12 and here it is:

Not ever implementing it in this game period. And thank the good mechajesus Russ and PGI firmly agree with me.

Well, they're not actually agreeing with you as much as they are apparently inflicted with "terrible coding" ... ahem, I meant "technical issues" ... or some such ailment that also prevents them from fixing the LBX.

cSand, on 23 January 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

PGI may do a bunch of wacky stuff, but choosing to try to balance Clan vs IS by making them equal but different was a rock solid decision. And honeslty it is working out pretty well. The sides as such are fairly balanced, now it is the time to start fine tuning individual chassis to bring the under-performers up and the handful of clearly OP mechs down to size a bit.

Balance is working out pretty well? That's hilarious considering the large amount of complaints about the misguided use of over-quirks.

Edited by Mystere, 23 January 2016 - 09:28 PM.

[cSand]

Aresye, on 23 January 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

Yeaaa...nope.

Think I'll wait for TheSilken to make an official post, but today's balance test shows otherwise:
https://www.reddit.c...e_in_8_minutes/

Ya actually, and I say this is a primarily IS pilot, I am disappointed with how nerfed the clans got.

But, b*tches gonna whine and look where it gets us.

Still, I think balance is better than it has been between sides. most of the Clams need a boost, IMO, and some of the engine nerfs reduced. And, some IS mechs need quirks reeled in.

I'm not sure how much weight I'll place on a match between 16 comp level players in their finest cheesery. I feel that only represents balance of a match between the top handful of mechs using the current most effective weapons. There will always be a meta, there is in every game, so using that level of play where it is only meta builds is sill. You want the entire thing balanced, not just the cheese of the moment.

That said, it's not a bad thing you put up there and I'm glad they are doing it, cause if we get people doing that kind of stuff at every level of play we will patterns occur and could balance more effectively from that

Edited by cSand, 23 January 2016 - 09:36 PM.