67 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

Moldur, on 26 January 2016 - 12:47 AM, said:

4 Assaults pilots don't suicide themselves every round.

*blink*

are you for real?

I know 4 Assaults pilots don't suicide themselves every round. why would you even think I was suggesting such a thing?

Quote

As stated earlier, the only constant in every game you play is you.

yes. and *you* can only control *you*. *you* can't control those 4 assaults in my example. *you* can't control the guy who doesn't know how/is too drunk to torso twist. *you* can't make everyone on the team all speak the same language. *you* can't make the 11 others on your team look for UAVs. *you* can't make the 11 others know how to avoid LRMs correctly. *you* can only control you. But a win or a loss is dependant on the actions and skills of 11 others besides *you*.

can you effect the outcome? sure. can you help the team win? yup. you can do that buy racking up damage and kills, spotting for UAVs. communicating with the team. situational awareness. etc.. but even doing all of that, winning or losing is ultimately out of your hands, since it depends on what those 11 other pilots did or didn't do.


but in a truly insane move, PGI decided that "pilot skill rating" is going to be heavily dependent on "team skill" rather than "pilot skill".

I mean, there's a reason sports teams look at players individual stats and players don't get sent to the minor leagues because their team has a losing record.


and even though it's unrelated to you or your comment, I just have to get this off my chest...."farming kills"??? seriously?? how god damn stupid can you get? you can't "farm kills" in this game.

[Xavori]

Okay, to try and get the discussion a bit back on track:

Here were my two original points:

-Winning is much more a factor of teamwork than pilot skill
-Non-damage, but very useful, piloting tasks go totally unrewarded

If you have any doubts about teamwork vs pilot skill, go run pugs for a couple days. I don't care how great you are as a pilot, you will lose matches because you got stuck on a team that wouldn't work together or couldn't aim without standing still or cored you in the back, etc. You will lose a lot of matches because of this.

Conversely, if you want to race your pilot rating up, first create a new account so you're not fighting against your previous record and find a half dozen friends who can hook up on teamspeak and learn to work together. Even if y'all are mediocre at best pilots, you will win much more often than you lose, even if there are a couple really good pilots on the other team. Teamwork is vastly, VASTLY more powerful than pilot skill when it comes to winning or losing, and since winning guarantees your rating won't go down, that's the easiest way to tier one.

If you want to totally wreck your pilot rating, play light mechs with tag lasers, narcs, ams, ecm, etc and do the really useful non-damage things like spotting, or covering assaults with ecm/ams, or capping, etc. Even when you win, there's a good chance your rating won't go up, and when you lose, it'll drop like a rock. Heck, even if you go leg a few enemies or take down an enemy light, it's not going to be enough damage to keep your score from dropping on losses.

[PyckenZot]

Again this topic

In essence I don't believe the W/L factor to be bad in "a" PSR calculations. How well you do in a loss or a win over hundres or thousands of games has relevance.

The problem is the actual formula used which is overly biased towards damage done instead of actual pilot skill factors.

[Isolani]

I think W/L should be part of it, but it seems to me that it's nearly all of you PSR score. Take these two examples from 2 days ago, in what universe should these two games give me the same PSR?

[Necromantion]

BECAUSE THE DEVS ARE A BUNCH OF CLUELESS IDIOTS.

/TREAD

Edited by Necromantion, 26 January 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Xavori, on 25 January 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

From what I've learned playing, and what I've seen watching vids by the top players, teamwork, not skill, is what drives winning and losing. (Seriously, teamwork is severely OP and definitely needs nerfed )

So why then does "pilot skill rating" care whether you won or lost a match? I mean, if you yolo your light mech into a lance of assaults and get blown to smithereens, but your team wins, you still suck and should see your rating go down. On the other hand, if you're running around getting shots in when you can on a team that is getting overrun, doesn't that show more skill? (yes, I know if you can push your damage high enough, it can still go up even in a loss)

And while we're on the subject of more skill...

Why is doing lots of damage in an assault or heavy mech, which is pretty easy, more valuable to your pilot rating than tagging things or capping or harassing lurmy boats in a light mech even tho those things are much harder. I know I didn't suddenly become a better pilot when I switched from running almost all lights to heavies and assaults, by my pilot skill rating is finally (slowly) climbing out of the basement. In fact, I'd argue I'm getting to be a lazier pilot because of it.

It shouldn't.

/thread

[MysticLink]

Honestly, I like this way of system better. I know a lot of people play in a style where there team takes damage, while they stay fresh, even if they are in a heavy or assault, they rather see the mediums rush ahead of them and take fire for them. Also, assaults should learn to tank even if long rang. People who like to have their team take all the damage while they dish out damage always going to do a lot more damage that way then rest of the team. That is one reason why winning should reward you more and losing should punish you.

One of the best ways to win, is by spreading the damage all across the board, and specially if mech with you tanked a lot to switch roles. If you see an assault that is almost dead on your team, and are a assault, but still make him go ahead of you and tank damage for you, and you lose but did more damage then that assault, you deserve to be somewhat punished.

Edited by MysticLink, 26 January 2016 - 10:51 AM.

[Dread Render]

win loss should Not effect your score.
It is a 50/50 chance and has no place being part of your rating.

[adamts01]

W/L is the best way to go. In the long run, good teamwork will yield more wins than losses. There are too many ways to rack up kills and damage while screwing your team. And all the little things lights do to secure a win can't be measured by a computer. Like scouting, how can a computer tell if it was good of you to peak and see the enemy or if you just gave away your team's position by cresting a hill? PSR doesn't know if that kill you got helped the team or if you deserted the front line in your Direwolf to chase a weaponless spider off the back of Candy Mountain and contributed to the loss. It's all about wins.

Render, on 26 January 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

win loss should Not effect your score.
It is a 50/50 chance and has no place being part of your rating.

It's not though. I've got a 1.92 W/L, mostly from solo que and I have terrible luck. Seriously, I average getting hit by a truck every 10 years.

[Kjudoon]

W/L allows you (or like some of us think... forces you) to have an artificially inflated PSR by riding the coattails of better players. Sure you have to do something... but not much with how biased the PSR scores are to rising.

That is why W/L should be removed. The outcome of the match should not factor into the fact you performed well or not. It should be obvious from whether or not you did well in a match on whether you earned an increase. More than enough people have had 6+ kill games and lost in the end. Their PSR should skyrocket because they pulled the weight of their team in most likelihood while everyone else sucked it up. On the other hand, if you did nothing in a win, you should get a decrease because you obviously didn't play any statistical part in that. Of course, spotting, narcing, scouting all need to be rewarded and quantified MUCH better.

Edited by Kjudoon, 26 January 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Render, on 26 January 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

win loss should Not effect your score.
It is a 50/50 chance and has no place being part of your rating.

If you can't affect the outcome of your matches and think it's 50/50 or left up to chance, then you are doing it wrong.

If I afk my matches I won't be getting 50/50 W/L.

[MysticLink]

IF you perform really well and you lose, your rating still goes up. If you perform well enough, it remains the same. You are only punished by a loss if you did ok or did bad. And you are rewarded for wins. I think that is the best way to go. And the better you do in the win, the more better your rating will be.

[MischiefSC]

Teamwork is a skill like aim and knowing how to build a good mech.

Threads like this show exactly why win/loss is important in psr. Everyone who understands that how they play affects the match and generally focuses on their own skills getting better. People who focus on how they feel their team did try to minimize their own impact on the match.

Which of those gets you to T1 first?

Sort of a dead topic though. Yes, of course how you play effects the match and your teams win/loss. If you don't believe so then reality isn't a big factor in your opinion on the issue so arguing it isn't productive.

W/l is in PSR because how you play impacts your teams ability to win or lose a match. If you don't believe that, well, good luck with that. You're wrong.

[Lightfoot]

Good point, win loss is just the team you got on pick-up. Nothing you can do if they run to the four corners... which they are doing among other things since Steam.

[Ted Wayz]

Johnny Z, on 25 January 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

MechWarrior has the best PSR of any game. Period. I'm serious. Topic closed. More topics complaining about lack of content please.

Had milk coming out my nose when I read this. And I wasn't even drinking milk!

If you are saying that only MWO has PSR then yes, given the sample size is 1 they would have the best PSR. Period.

If we are referring to pilot (singluar) skill (not win) rating (not everyone ends up in T1) as a ranking system....HA HA HA HA HA HA!

People are defending where you can be the best pilot in a match and have your "skill" rating go down and be the worst pilot in the match and have your "skill" rating go up!

You know what sort of people like systems like this? Not the ones who "carry hard". The people that like this system are the ones who "get carried all the time".

Keep that in mind each time you see someone defending this system. Then imagine them be the low man in a 12-man doing <100 damage in a Dire.

Side note: MWO isn't a competitive game and your tier is a reflection of how much you play. If your ego is based upon you being "gud" at a competitive game...you still aren't if you are Tier 1 in MWO.

[Darlith]

There are flaws in the system of course, but the win/loss factor isn't part of that really. There is more to skill in a team game than if you did a bunch of damage. The difficulty going up if you cap and do nothing else on assault is I assume the game saying "Uncontested wins don't really show skill, but no loss of psr because it also doesn't show you suck."

As it stands, if you are just riding the coattails of whatever team MM gives you than likely you will go nowhere or down, as you are unlikely to do well on losses, and you won't do great on wins. If you are an actual good player when it comes to damage than you will often go up or stay even on losses and you will go up a great deal on wins. If you are a good team player you will likely win far more than you lose and go up steadily. For example I am a mediocre player, and even I get break evens on losses often enough I don't consider it "rare" so I have to assume truely good players are getting break even or better on their losses fairly often.

Now that is for the solo queue of course, if you are running the group queue and always getting carried than you may very well go up while being an utterly **** player. And I suppose it is possible to be a superb player and get rolled repeatedly by larger teams there so you never go up despite playing well.

The flaws in the system as I see it are however: No way to lose standing on a win no matter how poorly you do would be a flaw if the system wasn't biased so heavily towards combat scores, it is possible, though difficult to "help your team win" and still score below 100; Low rewards for scouting, capping, and other non-combat activities that help your team win, damage figures far too heavily into your score compared to other things; A bit too low of a threshold for break even and gaining standing on losses, should be harder to hold onto your psr if you are a good damage farmer but a lousy team player.

Edited by Darlith, 26 January 2016 - 05:17 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

Darlith, on 26 January 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

The flaws in the system as I see it are however: No way to lose standing on a win no matter how poorly you do would be a flaw if the system wasn't biased so heavily towards combat scores, it is possible, though difficult to "help your team win" and still score below 100; Low rewards for scouting, capping, and other non-combat activities that help your team win, damage figures far too heavily into your score compared to other things; A bit too low of a threshold for break even and gaining standing on losses, should be harder to hold onto your psr if you are a good damage farmer but a lousy team player.

If you are AFK an entire match you will stay even. There is no danger to your "skill" rating. The only danger is you will be reported for non-participation.

Some flaws?

[Ted Wayz]

Ghogiel, on 26 January 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

If you can't affect the outcome of your matches and think it's 50/50 or left up to chance, then you are doing it wrong.

If I afk my matches I won't be getting 50/50 W/L.

Your statement is based on what? Fact?

Given matchmaker is still highly influential on whether you have a win streak or loss streak when not playing group then you could easily stay even despite frequent AFKs. In most cases a single pilot has very little effect on the outcome. So why does PSR reward people for just showing up when the matchmaker has them on a roll?

Sorry, but many of you really do not understand PSR and matchmaker.

[Darlith]

Ted Wayz, on 26 January 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

If you are AFK an entire match you will stay even. There is no danger to your "skill" rating. The only danger is you will be reported for non-participation.

Some flaws?

True I forgot that flaw in the list, a 0 score should equal psr down no matter what. But honestly how often does that really happen to the average player. If you are consistantly AFKing through whole matches your psr will tank and tank hard since you will be breaking even on wins and losing a bunch of psr on losses with no way to control it.

[Ted Wayz]

MysticLink, on 26 January 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

IF you perform really well and you lose, your rating still goes up. If you perform well enough, it remains the same. You are only punished by a loss if you did ok or did bad. And you are rewarded for wins. I think that is the best way to go. And the better you do in the win, the more better your rating will be.

The terms you use are relative and slanted. "You get punished in a loss if you did ok or bad". Compared to what? Right now it is compared to an arbitrary threshold that is not in relation to everyone's performance in a match. Does that remotely make sense that you should be punished if a team barely loses despite you being vital to the match being close, yet on the other side have someone rewarded where the team won despite how bad they played? Preposterous.

And these examples mostly are in relation to one mode. PSR does not adequately reward and harshly punishes assault and conquest if you play for a win via capping. Capping is legitimate in these modes yet you will have one side stay even and the other side go down if the match is played using a viable winning strategy.

PSR is plain rubbish.

Darlith, on 26 January 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

True I forgot that flaw in the list, a 0 score should equal psr down no matter what. But honestly how often does that really happen to the average player. If you are consistantly AFKing through whole matches your psr will tank and tank hard since you will be breaking even on wins and losing a bunch of psr on losses with no way to control it.

"With no way to control it? You mean like by the mere act of queuing in solo queue and being at the mercy of matchmaker. Do you see the revelation in that statement? That being AFK puts you at the same mercy as playing? Are seeing how wins and losses are arbitrary?