51 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

...because there will always be something which is the most optimal for the environment we are in just like having a fair skin is OP in the colder climate. Several things can alleviate "the problem" though, such as:

• Hard rock-paper-scissors balancing, for example long-range-direct-fire always beats brawling always beats indirect-fire (LRM etc.) always beats long-range-direct-fire and so on. Each subcategory will have its own meta though, but at least there are more varied builds overall. This could make the game feeling less of a sim and more gamey which could be bad.
  
• Make the game non competitive such as by introducing PvE (section) where there is little pressure for performing as best as possible. You could always ignore the leaderboards but when other people depend on you, it's hard to not take the best.
  
• Vary the environments themselves. This makes the most sense and PGI have been certainly trying to do this up till now but the results are not that remarkable. Why?

Is there more? What do you think about the issue? Fill free to fill or chime in!

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeah, the meta sucks.

Its fire all the things. Dance like a prancy unicorn and somehow twist away 90 damage every 3 seconds.

Game has no real battletechy, mech battle feel. No real heat management feel to it, nothing. Just a call of duty, fire everything all at once all the time kinda gameplay.

PVE would be cool, but given the fact that im sure the AI is just going to lolpha us in the CT, it wont be that much fun.

THis game would do well to get a CoF bloom based on how many weapons we fire, the less weapons fired at once, the less bloom we get. Some kind of Aim time delay as well, to represent the mech's targeting computer sighting in the guns and getting them to the proper convergeance.

Maybe not alot of OTM bloom like in tank games, but some bloom and CoF like Armored Warfare, and a mechanic that slows overall firing down would be fantastic.

[LordNothing]

there is always going to be a most optimal configuration, and part of the fun is finding that on your own. if someone gives it to you, its pretty much a cheat code in my book. that little nitpick aside the perfect situation is where optimal and anything else isnt different enough to really matter for anyone but the esports players.

the more important question is how much better is the so called 'meta' than other builds.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 January 2016 - 10:15 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

...because there will always be something which is the most optimal for the environment we are in just like having a fair skin is OP in the colder climate. Several things can alleviate "the problem" though, such as:

• Hard rock-paper-scissors balancing, for example long-range-direct-fire always beats brawling always beats indirect-fire (LRM etc.) always beats long-range-direct-fire and so on. Each subcategory will have its own meta though, but at least there are more varied builds overall. This could make the game feeling less of a sim and more gamey which could be bad.
  
• Make the game non competitive such as by introducing PvE (section) where there is little pressure for performing as best as possible. You could always ignore the leaderboards but when other people depend on you, it's hard to not take the best.
  
• Vary the environments themselves. This makes the most sense and PGI have been certainly trying to do this up till now but the results are not that remarkable. Why?

Is there more? What do you think about the issue? Fill free to fill or chime in!

Yes, SOMETHING will always be tops.

The Issue, in MWO, has traditionally been the divide between that something, and everything else. For that, there is no need, and no excuse.

I would have no issue, if Laservomit (or insert FotM here) was option 1a.
As long as we had some choices that comprised 1b.

Problem is with MWO, we go straight from option 1, the Meta of the Moment, to option rank 5 or 6, everything else really sucks in comparison. Not sorta sucks, not "well, this is good, but pewpew is better".

No, it's THIS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY, AND ALL ELSE IS META APOSTASY.

See the difference?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 January 2016 - 10:12 PM.

[Squirg]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

Yes, SOMETHING will always be tops.

The Issue, in MWO, has traditionally been the divide between that something, and everything else. For that, there is no need, and no excuse.

I would have no issue, if Laservomit (or insert FotM here) was option 1a.
As long as we had some choices that comprised 1b.

Problem is with MWO, we go straight from option 1, the Meta of the Moment, to option rank 5 or 6, everything else really sucks in comparison. Not sorta sucks, not "well, this is good, but pewpew is better".

No, it's THIS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY, AND ALL ELSE IS META APOSTASY.

See the difference?

This. PGI doesn't seem to understand that to get rid of a problematic meta you have to buff up the other options to par, not nerf one into the ground. RIP the LRMaggedon, RIP poptarts, RIP MGs. Just waiting for them to drunkenly nerf lasers so the cycle can start all over again.

[Wolfways]

LordNothing, on 24 January 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

the more important question is how much better is the so called 'meta' than other builds.

I tried out a meta TBR for a while and immediately doubled my normal match scores and damage.
(I still won't use meta)

[Hit the Deck]

Squirg, on 24 January 2016 - 10:23 PM, said:

This. PGI doesn't seem to understand that to get rid of a problematic meta you have to buff up the other options to par, not nerf one into the ground....

Both could certainly work.

Wolfways, on 24 January 2016 - 10:23 PM, said:

I tried out a meta TBR for a while and immediately doubled my normal match scores and damage.
(I still won't use meta)

That depends on what you had been using before

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

Both could certainly work.

That depends on what you had been using before

muh meta summoner man. wut else? (i'm being very serious here.....)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 January 2016 - 10:29 PM.

[LordNothing]

the summoner is a pretty good mech, it just never conformed to cw doctrine according to units and was declared useless. the salt of the community parroted them and now its reputation is ruined. you cant really hide in a ditch with it, you have to get up high and shoot down with pop shot weapons. its the perfect mech to defend on hellbore. even used it a couple times while attacking forge to clear out the spotters.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 January 2016 - 11:05 PM.

[Wolfways]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

That depends on what you had been using before

I try to keep my mechs as stock as possible....which isn't saying much with clan mechs

[Sigmar Sich]

What i don't like about MWO meta - not content, but form - one weapon group, huge alpha. Huge alphas reduced MWO gameplay to cover dependent peeking, like World of Tanks. With MWO potential - it is a degradation.


And it is sad to see mutilated 'mechs, who lost all their individuality.

Obviously, there always will be meta. I probably want it shifted from alpha strike one-button loadouts to two-three buttons diverse loadouts.
I believe this can be achieved with 1) heat management balance - more dissipation, less capacity 2) zonal quirks - quirk work only in certain mech location for certain amount of weapons (amount limitation because some mechs have too many hardpoints in same location)
And no more of this stupid quirks for weapon range, beam duration etc. Buff/nerf weapons themselves.
At least this would be a start.

[El Bandito]

[DovisKhan]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

Yes, SOMETHING will always be tops.

The Issue, in MWO, has traditionally been the divide between that something, and everything else. For that, there is no need, and no excuse.

I would have no issue, if Laservomit (or insert FotM here) was option 1a.
As long as we had some choices that comprised 1b.

Problem is with MWO, we go straight from option 1, the Meta of the Moment, to option rank 5 or 6, everything else really sucks in comparison. Not sorta sucks, not "well, this is good, but pewpew is better".

No, it's THIS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY, AND ALL ELSE IS META APOSTASY.

See the difference?

That's not true at all

Pit a max laser vomit vs a 6 CUAC 5 Dire and it will shred that laser guy in less than it can recharge for a second shot.


Laser meta is only for the peek and poke play, which is of course what happens in open maps, like the new one, but some maps cater more to brawling and a laser stands absolutely no chance at that vs an auto-cannon

[sneeking]

I don't know or care what the meta is so how can i complain about it ?

[C I L L I P U D D I]

There's always one of these "meta" posts every other day. You can't stop meta. You can't make every weapon equal to the next, because if you did you would just have generic laser weapon #1 and generic ballistic weapon #1. Most of you don't understand power creep on buffing/nerfing and the other half are too busy being rebels and fighting us dirty scumbag meta players, whom smoke your *** 9/10, while you derp around in your 2 LL AWE. Competitive players, who enjoy winning and big damage numbers, will always min/max in games. Regardless of how much it butchers your lore or whatever breaks your tenderhearts about it.

Nothing PGI does and nothing you suggest will make you better at the game, and you will always have things to complain about. It's ok though, I understand playing the game to have fun and by all means I promote it. Please keep playing the game, but do understand when you buff one thing and nerf another some thing else will take the metas place. Just like when they nerfed gauss and cermeds, srms and assaults became meta for a few weeks. And people were complaining about assaults, it may not have been anyone in this particular post but it happened. Game balance will never replace player skill. Buffs and nerfs only make the cream rise higher, and make the lower end players complain more.

[kapusta11]

The meta was and still is the same - stack weapons that sync well with each other and fire. The reason why lasers are on top is because PPCs no longer sync with ACs or Gauss. With a bit higher projectile speed SRMs may sync well with AC20 so that's another alternative.

[OznerpaG]

if you play a lot, meta gets boring game after game with no change. but if you want to win badly enough you have to play meta to get more consistent results

[Red Shrike]

Sigmar Sich, on 25 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

What i don't like about MWO meta - not content, but form - one weapon group, huge alpha. Huge alphas reduced MWO gameplay to cover dependent peeking, like World of Tanks. With MWO potential - it is a degradation.


And it is sad to see mutilated 'mechs, who lost all their individuality.

This! All my +1s!

I wanted a Mechwarrior game, not a glorified World of Tanks game.

[oldradagast]

LordKnightFandragon, on 24 January 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

THis game would do well to get a CoF bloom based on how many weapons we fire, the less weapons fired at once, the less bloom we get. Some kind of Aim time delay as well, to represent the mech's targeting computer sighting in the guns and getting them to the proper convergeance.

Agreed, but the "skillz" crowd who think that getting instant pin-point damage with their laser vomit requires "real skill!" are so offended that they'd lose their point-and-click shooter that they shout down this idea every time it comes up. So, instead we get ghost heat, almost got ghost range on lasers, and scatter based weapons - as well as ones that require leading - are still inferior to point-and-click laser damage.

[adamts01]

Squirg, on 24 January 2016 - 10:23 PM, said:

This. PGI doesn't seem to understand that to get rid of a problematic meta you have to buff up the other options to par, not nerf one into the ground. RIP the LRMaggedon, RIP poptarts, RIP MGs. Just waiting for them to drunkenly nerf lasers so the cycle can start all over again.

I'd rather see slight nerfs than slight buffs. Power creep is real.

Sigmar Sich, on 25 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

Obviously, there always will be meta. I probably want it shifted from alpha strike one-button loadouts to two-three buttons diverse loadouts.
I believe this can be achieved with 1) heat management balance - more dissipation, less capacity 2) zonal quirks - quirk work only in certain mech location for certain amount of weapons (amount limitation because some mechs have too many hardpoints in same location)
Buff/nerf weapons themselves.

I'm with you on a lower heat cap, and zone quirks sound cool. But some mechs just need help. True some weapons are just crap, but some mechs are too. Take the Summoner for instance. Standard armor and structure mixed with anemic, low mounted hard points. It doesn't have the tonnage to run heavy weapons or the hard points to boat small ones. It needs buffs. The UAC10 it carries doesn't need buffs.

DovisKhan, on 25 January 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:

That's not true at all
Pit a max laser vomit vs a 6 CUAC 5 Dire and it will shred that laser guy in less than it can recharge for a second shot.

That's absolutely not true. There are some small pulse, medium pulse builds that will eat a dire alive. Dakka dires have to face tank to do damage, can't torso twist and their side torsos melt like butter.