80 replies to this topic

[V O L T R O N]

They are center focused. They all have a huge structure in the middle and causes these circling brawling matches.

Alpine has a huge mountain that everyone rushes too and it becomes a hill hump fest.

Forest Colony most of the clutter is in the middle or over the bridge pass. Not as drastic as the other maps but ya.

Caustic, do I need to explain? Also has a bad spawn point on Skirmish mode

Frozen City/Night Drop ship along with Jenner alley being the lower surrounding. High ground being C3 where most of the pushing is centered around.

River City is better with its remake than it was before, but the Citadel is still one of the main focus's. I do think the Rocks help for breaking that up a bit.

Veridian Bog has two huge mounds instead of one focused center, but still you have to go to the middle to find the enemy and to remain out of line of site, it creates circling.

Crimson Strait, has a huge mountain in between two starting areas, but still a fairly balanced match. Still has nascar matches occasionally, and has other alternative as a tunnel and pass. Also on Skirmish it has the lone lance that often gets caught on the island side.

Canyon Network, another pretty balanced map, but still has a center focused feel to it. The highest point of high ground is RIGHT in the middle.

HPG one of my favorite maps, but has a center to it, and bad spawn points that creates instant push and no time for formation. Pretty balanced thou and much like an arena map. I do enjoy.

Terra Therma - Dont need to explain here too much, One team has a quicker route to the middle, has a Volcano in the middle. Usually I have lopsided matches on this map when or lose.

Many of these maps I find better on Conquest just because it breaks up the standoffs or circle fiesta.

I like all the maps, I enjoy every single one of their differences, but I pointed out their similarities However most of my matches last 5 minutes of less for a decent que time when matches are suppose to be 15 minutes max.

Solution to making future maps? More clutter on the outside, more open space in the middle and raised elevation in random areas, not just the middle. It will create longer games, more stradegy and thought process to finding attack positions rather than rushing a position and then figuring out if your enemy is going with plan a or b.

[sycocys]

Mapmakers never played a MW game before they got hired? Sometimes seems like Russ didn't either because he greenlights it all.

[FlipOver]

I'd add to the options one reason of what's wrong with ALL maps:

Size

Too small for 12v12

[Funky Bacon]

Still waiting for a proper city map with a whole huge city being in the middle on top of a hill or down in a bowl. And no open rivers or big parks going through it. Imagine River City without the river and fill it with more buildings. Huge city with huge buildings. Cover frigging EVERYWHERE! Would maybe suck for LRM Boats's and snipers the same way Alpine sucks for brawlers, but myeeh, smart pilots could still make it work.

[xWiredx]

The maps are kind of designed that way, but it's actually natural for players to gravitate to certain spots simply because of human nature. Especially when trying to coordinate, you use landmarks.

Circling (nascaring) is more of a player thing than a map thing, though. Yes, we have focal points and large cover points that people circle around, but they do that because they want to try to be aggressive but also stay within reach of cover. Since the opposing players are also doing that, they circle. This, combined with the mentality of attempting to pick off stragglers and thin the enemy herd so your team gains a firepower and number advantage, is more the reason for the nascar mentality.

If we had a perfectly square, flat map this wouldn't happen, sure. At least, at first. As the teams started to focus down enemies instead of randomly shooting whatever is directly in front of them, you'd start to see this happen, too.

The short of it is that yes, the maps are partially to blame, but only by a little bit. Map design changes won't change this behavior much. Most players have a swarm mentality (the deathball) instead of a tactical mentality (firing line) akin to the Zerg rush.

I would like to see some maps with a nice mentality change even though the behavior won't change much, though. The problem is that without other game modes that don't focus strictly on getting 12 kills, other design philosophies make less sense.

[Bud Crue]

To me, it isn't the map layout/construction per se (yeah some could be better) but rather the following:

1) Drop zones. Two issues:
A) Placing the teams in the same general opposing areas each time leads to staleness lack of tactical potential. In other words, after a few plays you know where the enemy is and they no where you are. So we just head after each other (i.e. the middle) to start the brawl. Map can be mountainous, flat, or whatever. That's what's going to happen.
B Spread of lances. Illustration: North drop on Canyon: How many times does the light lance dropped on the left valley have to be told NOT to run off by itself? South drop Canyon. Why are you all running away from the assaults? 8 of the red team is about to come around the corner and kill them because you are focusing on the their light lance running up the middle of the map. Repeat...every damn time. Each map has this "feature", with some being worse (alpine and desert) and others being not quite as bad (Bog).

2) Visibility and other features which impact play. This is a question of perception (noobs vs vets to an extent)
The reason the new maps (Endor, River City, Caustic) are always one of the least selected maps, despite how lovely they are? Becasue you can't see crap in re targeting the enemy. Thus, these maps are a big down vote to many. IMO most new players think they can rambo and single-handedly snipe the enemy into submission (they are wrong, but that isn't the point). That play style is hard to do when you can't see because of trees and fog or need heat vision (which also limits long range views). Many complain about heat too (mordor) but the reality is, is that poor visibility hurts the map selection and game "enjoyment" far more than heat for many rambos/players. Why is desert so popular vs mordor? Heat is bad on both, but desert has great visibility. Frozen city night is always voted for because it gives both great visibility and great heat management. Regular Frozen City...not so much.

Edited by Bud Crue, 06 January 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[Greyhart]

would be interesting to design a map with a big hole (rather than a big hill) in the middle so people would want to actively avoid the middle.

[jss78]

Sometimes I wonder how much there is PGI can do to prevent such behaviours. Apart from painfully obvious central features such as Caustic/Mordor, at least.

I think it's just group behaviour. Any map presents a certain number of possible tactics, and at first these are used. Then one ends up used more and adopted even by those who initially tried something different. At that point it's damn difficult to make people do anything else. Maybe we have a psychology/sociology major around who could elucidate.

I started playing about a year ago, and the best I recall the "Race to R*tard Ridge" gameplay emerged at Alpine only around last spring.

It's honestly a surprise to me that we virtually always fight in that one area in around the rock arch at Forest Colony. I didn't see anything in the map design to suggest that we'd have to do that, but so we seem to.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I was going to say fog on the new maps and spawn locations on the old maps.

[Khobai]

Part of proper map design is incorporating whats called "flow" into maps.

A lot of the MWO maps like Alpine lack flow. The MWO map that most notably has flow is HPG. Which is why HPG is one of the more popular maps because fighting can happen almost anywhere on HPG.

Flow is basically a map design element that allows the player to go in the direction they want to go without hesitation or frustation.

HPG allows you to go pretty much wherever you want on the map because it has ample cover everywhere in addition to the basement area which allows to crossover to the other side of the map without being sniped by anyone on the top. Both teams have tons of options for where to move on HPG and as a result the engagements are diverse and varied.

Where a map like Alpine just has no flow at all. Everything about Alpine funnels players to the mountain in the center of the map. Another map that has no flow is Terra Therma because it excessively frustrates players from going where they want to go and again funnels them to the center.

Forest Colony also has poor flow issues because theres a lack of cover in the water and theres a huge mountain blocking the other side of the map, so players get funneled to a small area in the center because its the only place where both teams can engage with ample cover.

Having huge maps like that is pointless unless you provide multiple paths to get to the enemy.

Edited by Khobai, 06 January 2016 - 09:45 AM.

[V O L T R O N]

Tourmaline, forgot about this map, but it has a fair bit of open space in the mid. Still has a circle fest at times on one teams side, but overall maybe the most balanced map there is.

[Nik Reaper]

I was just thinking about this the other day, and my thoughts went right in the other direction, ei. instead of only having blob like maps with a big central feature how about we have a few elongated maps that focus on several trench battles?

That is to say the map is 2x as long as it is wide and there are several trench lines and a few winding hills, think like canyon network only a real canyon, much longer , with some rock cover to break the line of sight.

I think I would enjoy a linear fight but with good cover and mby a few side passages for some flanking opportunities.

Why I think this would be nice is: death ball is the main play style and the first minute is spent on forming it from the scattered lances after witch all go to the central feature and fight it out, so how about we make a map that reinforces this while making it fun, storming trenches and strategic retreats to a trenches more to the rear with sections of longer and shorter lines of sight. Also kinda reminiscent of hellbore springs but better adapted for non cw map play.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 06 January 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Tourmaline, forgot about this map, but it has a fair bit of open space in the mid. Still has a circle fest at times on one teams side, but overall maybe the most balanced map there is.

Tourmaline is indeed one of the better maps as far as flow is concerned. Again because theres ample cover everywhere which allows you to move in the direction you want to go. The terrain doesnt funnel you to a particular spot on the map. Youre not forced to go a particular way and you have lots of options about where to engage the enemy.

Tourmaline probably isnt one of the most popular maps though due to the high ambient heat.

Edited by Khobai, 06 January 2016 - 09:51 AM.

[AlphaToaster]

The maps themselves look nice when they're lit up, but Forest Colony and River City get really dark.

I haven't found that nice balance for graphics yet where I can see when it's darker, and not get blinded by gamma when I get a map like Alpine or Tourmaline.

The range on Thermal vision and night vision is really terrible making these 2 of the most frustrating maps to play.

[Mystere]

Funky Bacon, on 06 January 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Still waiting for a proper city map with a whole huge city being in the middle on top of a hill or down in a bowl. And no open rivers or big parks going through it. Imagine River City without the river and fill it with more buildings. Huge city with huge buildings. Cover frigging EVERYWHERE! Would maybe suck for LRM Boats's and snipers the same way Alpine sucks for brawlers, but myeeh, smart pilots could still make it work.

Here you go:



PGI, make it so!

[jss78]

AlphaToaster, on 06 January 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

The maps themselves look nice when they're lit up, but Forest Colony and River City get really dark.

I haven't found that nice balance for graphics yet where I can see when it's darker, and not get blinded by gamma when I get a map like Alpine or Tourmaline.

The range on Thermal vision and night vision is really terrible making these 2 of the most frustrating maps to play.

FWIW, I've found setting the in-game Gamma to 0.75 just about right. It doesn't make things look unnatural, but really helps you to see in certain maps, especially monotone grey ones like HPG and Mordor.

[sycocys]

The new Forest Colony could have been the best map in the game IF there wasn't a giant line of mountains with only 1 path through or go around.

Why part of that wasn't made into a cave system similar to the original and the rest into hills or some sort of mutant giant trees/rock out croppings to make the map open..... just foolish. Completely wastes at least half if not 3/4ths of the map.

But I have to agree with others that even despite the heat Tourmaline is probably the current best map in the game as far as design goes. Everything else is too channeled, too small and too fps arena/fight at the center. New River City probably falls in second, but again so much wasted space where there could be dynamic play that just gets completely channeled away from.

[Moomtazz]

Conquest on Alpine seems to never turn into NASCAR. The fight ends up on one fourth of the map and no one goes up the hill or by the radio tower or into the city. It is a huge contrast from Skirmish or Assault modes. Pretty fun actually.

edit: Should say NASCAR rarely develops on Alpine in any mode.

Edited by Moomtazz, 06 January 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[El Bandito]

Center should be the focus of the map, as it is the most balanced point for both teams.

[Bobzilla]

Part of it is keeping yourself between the enemy and the edge of the map so your arc of fire is limited instead of 360 degrees. It's just smart play, but a creative map could help curb that issue.

Mining collective has no reason to go near the center, and lots of cover to get around on the sides, which is why all the fighting usually takes place near a corner.