161 replies to this topic

[Onimusha shin]

Now for the small pulses groups.

Clan SPL vs IS SL

Spoiler

Clan SPL vs IS SL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan SPL vs IS SL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)

Spoiler

Clan SPL vs IS SL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


As I said in the post before, a maxed quirked IS SL is basically a C-SPL. Balanced?

Clan SPL vs IS SPL

Spoiler

Clan SPL vs IS SPL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan SPL vs IS SPL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)

Spoiler

Clan SPL vs IS SPL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


A 30m difference in optimal ranges between the 2 SPLs is negligible. That IS SPL quirked burn time though. DAMN!

[Widowmaker1981]

kesmai, on 26 January 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:

After a glimpse with my half blind eye the outcome of those matches may also be a matter of teamwork, skill And coordination. Could you do a chart for that?

The teams swapped Clan / IS side halfway through and replayed the same 3 matches on reverse sides. IS won 6 out of 6, team score was 3:3. Kinda eliminates team skill as a variable.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 January 2016 - 03:05 AM.

[Appogee]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 January 2016 - 03:04 AM, said:

The teams swapped Clan / IS side halfway through and replayed the same 3 matches on reverse sides. IS won 6 out of 6, team score was 3:3. Kinda eliminates team skill as a variable.

Not necessarily.

Clan Mechs and IS Mechs require different playstyles. I play better in Clan vs IS. I'm sure others are the other way around. The fact that I win more in Clan Mechs doesn't mean Clan Mechs are better.



On a related point:

One of the big complicating factors in the Clan vs IS balance equation at the moment is that an IS team of quirked Mechs loaded out to fully exploit their quirks is FAAAAAR better than an IS team with a mix of Mechs.

The great majority of matches I play in have IS teams where barely a third of the team followed Paul's Quirk Cookbook. Hell, I can barely convince half my own unit to take advantage of quirks.

Clanners usually want to compare IS quirked variants and loadouts to standard Clan loadouts. But as I just demonstrated, that's only a fair comparison if they're always fighting optimised quirked IS Mechs. And they're not.

Edited by Appogee, 26 January 2016 - 03:12 AM.

[Onimusha shin]

kesmai, on 26 January 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:

After a glimpse with my half blind eye the outcome of those matches may also be a matter of teamwork, skill And coordination. Could you do a chart for that?

Yeah sure. I'll do that WHEN PGI can do a REAL PSR ranking instead of the borked PSR XP grind bar we have now. THEN I can use closely ranked players.

ORRRRRR, we could be objective and compare apples with quirked apples. Because, assuming SAME skill levels or even exact same pilots, this is what the comparisons are about.

[kesmai]

I think i'll have to fully watch the recordings then. Esp. Which builds were used on both sides.

[Onimusha shin]

DerMaulwurf, on 26 January 2016 - 02:59 AM, said:

Sorry, but numbers lie all the time. Especially if you pick a variety of extremely specific scenarios and exclude all other variables, just like you are doing now.

Just like what kesmai said below your post, you cannot quantify any of the other variables in play during a match.

However, what makes you think that limited specific weapon variables do not work for comparison?

Comp players WILL pick their engagement ranges and stick to them as much as possible. They will also have trained with the respective best quirked weapons to the point that they got their torso twist timings down to muscle memory at times. That's how comp players play, which means ranges and burn durations are reasonably controlled weapon variables.

[Tarogato]

Wait wait wait hang on a second. Did I mis-glance at the tables or did you list IS SL as superior to cERSL and cERLL as superior to quirked IS ERLL?

[Widowmaker1981]

Onimusha shin, on 26 January 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

which means ranges and burn durations are reasonably controlled weapon variables.

Are you trying to suggest duration is NOT a major factor in laser balance?

You realise the IS-LPL is the best IS laser weapon?

What do you think would happen if its duration was doubled to 1.3 seconds? Would it be complete garbage?

Yes, yes it would.

If you halved the C-ERLL duration to 0.75 seconds for example it would be HORRENDOUSLY overpowered. Id never run anything else.

Edit: i think ive come to the wrong conclusion from your posts - i thought you were saying Clan still have the advantage, but you're actually just saying that clans best option was to use C-ERLLs and LPLs would have been worse - i disagree on that, i think C-ERLLs are literal junk due to the burntime, but i do agree that Clan would likely still have lost with LPLs.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 January 2016 - 04:11 AM.

[STEF_]

Appogee, on 26 January 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

Narrow comparisons aren't helpful, and they certainly don't explain the outcome of any battle..

Clan superiority balance vs IS isn't only a matter of HP or weapon comparisons. Clans continue to benefit from:

• surviving when a side torso is gone
  
• lighter weapons and equipment across the board
  
• ability to min/max large numbers of hardpoints via omnipods,
  
• lower slot requirements
  
• longer weapon ranges across the board except vs some very specific quirked IS variants and loadouts
  
• uniform movement speeds in their heavies, enabling easier deathballing
  
• multiple targeting computers at lower weight, enhancing critting chances, target data and zoom
  
• fewer slots for DHS
  
• CASE on every component of every Mech
  
• the ability to boat large numbers of Streaks against IS Lights - IS has not equivalent
  
• UACs >5, creating the opportunity to significant increase damage beyond standard DPS

IS have some advantages, too... some specific variants are quirked, generally less locked structure, flexibility in engine rating, flexibility in ES/FF upgrades, slightly better heat dissipation, etc..




Point is: you can't attribute an IS team's victory over a Clan team to something as narrow as weapon and hitpoint comparisons.

And that's before you take into account other factors like individual player skill, the effectiveness of the competing commanders, map spawn point biases, etc.

Appogee, on 26 January 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

Not necessarily.

Clan Mechs and IS Mechs require different playstyles. I play better in Clan vs IS. I'm sure others are the other way around. The fact that I win more in Clan Mechs doesn't mean Clan Mechs are better.



On a related point:

One of the big complicating factors in the Clan vs IS balance equation at the moment is that an IS team of quirked Mechs loaded out to fully exploit their quirks is FAAAAAR better than an IS team with a mix of Mechs.

The great majority of matches I play in have IS teams where barely a third of the team followed Paul's Quirk Cookbook. Hell, I can barely convince half my own unit to take advantage of quirks.

Clanners usually want to compare IS quirked variants and loadouts to standard Clan loadouts. But as I just demonstrated, that's only a fair comparison if they're always fighting optimised quirked IS Mechs. And they're not.

Wait..... are you suggesting seriously that clan are still OP?
In this case, before I'm going to rolf, I repeat what I've already said the day after the "great rebalance n°4": I'm dropping IS only.
Even when my unit decides on a clan contrac: that week, or couple of weeks, I don't play CW, I refuse to play clan and having to carry harder.
Am I masoquist? or crazy?
or maybe it's because IS is the easy way now?







aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaans still there is someone saying clan op!

LOLOLOLOLOL

[DovisKhan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 26 January 2016 - 03:56 AM, said:

Wait..... are you suggesting seriously that clan are still OP?
In this case, before I'm going to rolf, I repeat what I've already said the day after the "great rebalance n°4": I'm dropping IS only.
Even when my unit decides on a clan contrac: that week, or couple of weeks, I don't play CW, I refuse to play clan and having to carry harder.
Am I masoquist? or crazy?
or maybe it's because IS is the easy way now?







aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaans still there is someone saying clan op!

LOLOLOLOLOL

He's stating that they're balanced, but you want to appear immature by rofling for no reason, did we get this correct?


There's things IS does better and there's definitely enough going on for Clans as well, you're only salty clans aren't easy mode.

You have a clan alternative for every IS weapon with superior damage. Like LPL vs CUAC20 for example, same range, similar weight, just way more damage on the Clan side.


Lets compare:


CUAC20

Range 360

Damage - double burst 20 X 2 = 40

Cooldown - 4 sec

Heat - 7 X 2 = 14

Tonnage - 12


VS


LPL


Range 365

Damage - 11

Heat - 7

Cooldown - 3.25

Tonnage - 6


To have the ~same burst for IS it would cost:


3X LPL


Damage - 33

Heat - 21

Cooldown - 3.25

Tonnage - 18


Resume:

For the same tonnage (weapon + ammo) Clans get a weapon of similar range, with 20% more damage and 33% less heat generation.

Cooldown quirks would close the dps gap, however they would still increase the heat gap, with heat reduction quirks also present, it would ~ even out.

So you HAVE to min max an IS mech to get what Clans get out of the box.

Meaning you HAVE to run a [insert weapon] build on a [insert mech] because it has a certain quirk, just so you'd be on par with a Clan mech, you don't get an advantage.


^ What's more, even Clan mediums can equip a CUAC20, show me a medium for IS that can equip 3 LPLs and have full armor. So your overall mech deck does have more options as a clanner

Edited by DovisKhan, 26 January 2016 - 04:31 AM.

[STEF_]

DovisKhan, on 26 January 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

He's stating that they're balanced, but you want to appear immature by rofling for no reason, did we get this correct?


There's things IS does better and there's definitely enough going on for Clans as well, you're only salty clans aren't easy mode.

You have a clan alternative for every IS weapon with superior damage. Like LPL vs CUAC20 for example, same range, similar weight, just way more damage on the Clan side.

Appo 's not stating they are balanced.

And they are not. IS is uberquirked, and the real easy way. Period.

About me, I really don't care about clan/IS, 'cause I'm a merc.
And yes, I'm really freacking immature!
But everyone saying IS/clan is balanced, or clan OP, is a lot more immature than me.
Or a bad player.

[DovisKhan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 26 January 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

Appo 's not stating they are balanced.

And they are not. IS is uberquirked, and the real easy way. Period.

About me, I really don't care about clan/IS, 'cause I'm a merc.
And yes, I'm really freacking immature!
But everyone saying IS/clan is balanced, or clan OP, is a lot more immature than me.
Or a bad player.

Just gave you a numerical proof Clans are on par with IS and do have more options, denying that just makes you a kid that shuts his eyes and ears and goes "allalala" because he does not want to be presented with facts that shatter his little wrong opinion to pieces

Edited by DovisKhan, 26 January 2016 - 04:39 AM.

[STEF_]

DovisKhan, on 26 January 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

Just gave you a numerical proof Clans are on par with IS and do have more options, denying that just makes you a kid that shuts his eyes and ears and goes "allalala" because he does not want to be presented with facts that shatter his little wrong opinion to pieces

Why do you forget talking about dhs and heat efficiency?
you, mature old fart ...

oh, wait, I've just read your correction.
I'll add you in my black list, 'cause...you are.... too "mature"... you know....

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 26 January 2016 - 04:46 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

You are simply not understanding the duration issue. Its a vastly bigger thing than you give it credit for, as i explained above. Its NOT just the issue of holding the beam on target, that is trivial. Its the exposure time and thus the return fire.

This. Anyone who doesn't understand how big exposure is, try playing a missile boat in direct-fire mode only.

Once you recover from having yourself cored every game, get back to us. The difference is less for CERLLs, but at that level it may as well not be as your opponent will burn you a new belly button.

[DovisKhan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 26 January 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

Why do you forget talking about dhs and heat efficiency?
you, mature old fart ...

oh, wait, I've just read your correction.
I'll add you in my black list, 'cause...you are.... too "mature"... you know....

21 vs 14 heat and 33 vs 40 damage


Clans win your "dhs and heat efficiency" challenge.


Black list, just cause you can't handle basic math disqualifies you from being considered seriously anyway

Edited by DovisKhan, 26 January 2016 - 04:53 AM.

[Onimusha shin]

DovisKhan, on 26 January 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

In reality, lets take a few stock (stock builds, because you can't accuse me of being biased that way) Assault mechs, one IS and one Clan

Both at ~840 total hp so you'd see what you get with the same tankiness (after quirks applied)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=149&l=stock
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=288&l=stock

Clan mech gets ~2x more damage, JJ, Clan Masc (greater move speed), and all that only for the energy efficiency, but that's hardly relevant since with greater mobility comes greater positioning and in poke and hide meta overheating isn't that much of a problem when you have 2x the burst

If you're taking non-optimized mech builds, ie stock builds, then I'm not sure if you can even compare things objectively. The BLR lacks Endo which you would almost always swap in. It's not unusual for a higher tonnage to have more equipment either, so not sure what you're trying to compare. Furthermore, both are bracket builds, the worst kind of builds for comparing.

Stock BLR-3M: 53dmg alpha, 14.22DPS max, 7s to overheat, ie. 99.54dmg before overheat, riding heatcap with 4.42DPS sustained. Weapon range begins from 810m.
Stock EXE-D: 96dmg alpha, 14.89DPS max, 5s to overheat, ie. 77.45dmg before overheat, riding heatcap with 5.88DPS sustained. Weapon range begins from 600m.

So BLR-3M can start throwing PPC shots from:
1620m to 1200m with 0-1.25DPS uncontested,
1200m to 810m with 1.25-2.50DPS advantage over C-LPL 0-1.98DPS,
810m to 600m with 2.50DPS advantage over C-LPL 1.98-2.97DPS
at 300m, the full alphas can be unleashed by both.
So EXE-D overheats in 5s, will need 3.75s to catch up to BLR-3M's 7s maxed DPS of 99.54dmg, by which time, the BLR-3M gets to put out another 7.735dmg which takes the EXE-D another 1.12s to catch up, then the EXE-D's sustained DPS can overtake the BLR-3M's sustained DPS. However, the dmg put out both mechs would be enough to strip away all armor from one ST.

Looking at the two builds, the EXE-D would end up much worse off if it lost its RT, with heat and movement penalties. The BLR-3M is indifferent at close range to which ST it loses.

Now, would you prefer an actual apples to quirked apples comparison?

DovisKhan, on 26 January 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

PS: Comparing Pulse laser with ER Large Lasers, seriously?

If you're going that far out of your way to impose the illusion of IS superiority, lets be opjective:

Compare IS pulse lasers with Clan UAC20s, they have the ~same weight, range, but Clan UAC20s have way more damage and have less heat.

But that doesn't fir yoyr agenda so well now does it.

I'm not sure how comparing lasers with ACs is being objective. Lasers are instant hitscan weapons, which ACs are PPFLD. But C-UACs are FLD high facetime weapons with risk of jamming for 5s. How do you objectively compare an orange with a quirked apple?

LOL

[kapusta11]

IS mechs WITH structure quirks last longer than clan mechs ONLY when you aim for CT. Thus either if they have STD engine of If they have XL but for some reason you still went for CT.

[Widowmaker1981]

DovisKhan, on 26 January 2016 - 04:51 AM, said:

21 vs 14 heat and 33 vs 40 damage


Clans win your "dhs and heat efficiency" challenge.


Black list, just cause you can't handle basic math disqualifies you from being considered seriously anyway

Are you so biased you cant see the difference between a weapon that fires a stream of slow projectiles, requires ammo and jams to a weapon that is hitscan, with a lower total beam duration than the AC20 projectile stream and requires no ammo?

Really?

Ill take a triple IS-LPL mech against a single UAC20 mech any day of the week.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 January 2016 - 05:06 AM.

[MechWarrior849305]

Stopped reading all dat columns when it came to statement that "C-ERLL is better than C-LPL because of ponies math"

[Onimusha shin]

Tarogato, on 26 January 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:

Wait wait wait hang on a second. Did I mis-glance at the tables or did you list IS SL as superior to cERSL and cERLL as superior to quirked IS ERLL?

Taro, you're a math geek, surely you can make the numbers match up? The Clan Superiority % below each column stat, shows the +/- difference from the IS weapon compared. Also, summing them up might not be the best choice but the IS diehards here will argue that the C-erLL is still superior to a quirked IS erLL anyway. Objectively speaking, we should be looking at vanilla stats (which I also did in the spreadsheet) and the respective stat % differences.

Here, below are the explanations again for the terminology used, which I also must say are a tad confusing. =P

Onimusha shin, on 26 January 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

To begin with, I'll have to explain the tables below. I might have used some confusing terminology so this should set the record straight.

Clan HeatCap - refers to 2x the weapon stated
Each HeatCap - refers to 2x the weapon stated for Clans, 3x the weapon stated for IS

% differences - derived from the % advantage/disadvantage over the IS weapon compared below, ie. damage difference divided by IS weapon damage stats

Clan Superiority % - refers to the sum total of the % differences, excluding the set variables such as RANGE, DURATION.

DPS, DPH, DPS/T, HPS are all derivatives (calculated from the preceding stats, so they are listed only for reference and discussion)

So basically, the comparison tables below are comparing Clan Superiority % of the following conditions:

2xClan and 2xIS weapons, at IS optimal range and at Clan optimal range
(this is a common scenario in most public or CW games)

2xClan and 3xIS weapons, at IS optimal range and at Clan optimal range, and at lowest burn duration between the 2 weapons compared
(this is more common in Heavy and Assault mechs facing off, and in competitive matches)

Widowmaker1981, on 26 January 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

Edit: i think ive come to the wrong conclusion from your posts - i thought you were saying Clan still have the advantage, but you're actually just saying that clans best option was to use C-ERLLs and LPLs would have been worse - i disagree on that, i think C-ERLLs are literal junk due to the burntime, but i do agree that Clan would likely still have lost with LPLs.

DUDE!!! TOOK YOU LONG ENOUGH!

Some peeps just DON'T read! =P

kapusta11, on 26 January 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:

IS mechs WITH structure quirks last longer than clan mechs ONLY when you aim for CT. Thus either if they have STD engine of If they have XL but for some reason you still went for CT.

Sorry, you're not making any sense. Increased total HP means more HP to spread damage in a top tier match. If you're playing scrub tiers like T3-5, obviously you'd be cored and killed frequently in your CT alone.

So, what are you trying to say?

Bukkakechans flying futapantsu, on 26 January 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

Stopped reading all dat columns when it came to statement that "C-ERLL is better than C-LPL because of ponies math"

Unfortunately, if you're playing the range game, would you bring C-LPLs to face off quirked IS erLLs?