71 replies to this topic

[Bonger Bob]

so yeah, was in a round today seeing the usual lazor vomit spam at long ranges before any real engagement is taking place and thought "what if lazors and ppc's had ammo requirements ?"

instant end to the meta-jam-your-mech-full-of-lazors and go spam till you drop, people would be far more cautious and conservative, trying to go for well placed shots over spam due to ammo.

just imagine if ammo was scaled to weapon size ( like it is for AC ballistics currently ) how much ERLL or PPC spam would you see ??

added bonus of a lot less of the "opps i hit you because i was testing my alpha heat gen" as people are moving off at the start of rounds.

basically it comes down to : you don't see people with AC20's etc wasting shots that are unlikely to land damage, how great would it be if every weapon in the game was used like that.

it could extend to differing ammo types, like an ammo that is high heat generation but higher damage with a smaller ammo per ton stack or an ammo that has average heat with medium damage but more ammo per ton. Another could have lowered damage but better range with less heat. So many options to expand game play.

only problem would be the lore.......and....well........we know how PGI handles lore.....so problems ???? lol

just a thought to dream ( or have nightmares ) about, lol

[Wolfways]

You mean instead of heat sinks?

[Cranial Enigma]

How about instead of adding another mechanic that about 95% of the population playing MW:O will hate (like ghost heat) we just revert the nerfs that were put on ACs (and machine guns that got nerfed way too many times for no reason) and PPCs and see how things go from there.

For those that don't know, ACs got their velocity and range nerfed, and PPCs got their velocity nerfed.

[Mystere]

Mixed-tech matches. Clans organized into lances and companies. Separate queues in CW. And now ammo for energy weapons. What would people think of next?

Edited by Mystere, 25 January 2016 - 04:37 PM.

[cSand]

Mystere, on 25 January 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Mixed-tech matches. Clans organized into lances and companies. Separate queues in CW. And now ammo for energy weapons. What would people think of next?

I'm thinking we should add ground troops with light sabers myself

and a 3rd aliens faction that can invade with different mechs

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Far_Country

Edited by cSand, 25 January 2016 - 04:40 PM.

[dario03]

That would remove one of the biggest differences between lasers and other weapons. So I'm not a fan. Though if PGI wants to give us some new weapons (which would be really really nice) they could add chemical lasers and plasma rifles (nobody say anything about the timeline ) . Those are energy weapons that use ammo. Chemical lasers weren't used on mechs usually but just make them work like lasers but with less heat but ammo dependent.

Edited by dario03, 25 January 2016 - 04:40 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Inner Sphere Plasma Rifles, Clan Plasma Cannons, and Clan Chemical Lasers are all true-to-BT energy weapons with ammo requirements.

I really, really want Plasma Rifles. Oh yes, heat-inducing AC/10s that weight six tons? Where do I sign?

[Bonger Bob]

Mystere, on 25 January 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Mixed-tech matches. Clans organized into lances and companies. Separate queues in CW. And now ammo for energy weapons. What would people think of next?

lol, lets face it, lore is dead. Its corpse is just poking out of the ground sometimes when it floods because of how shallow its been buried.

it was buried shallow because some of us still hope it can be revived, but it's looking like old fish the more time goes on.

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

Inner Sphere Plasma Rifles, Clan Plasma Cannons, and Clan Chemical Lasers are all true-to-BT energy weapons with ammo requirements.

I really, really want Plasma Rifles. Oh yes, heat-inducing AC/10s that weight six tons? Where do I sign?

learn something every day, lol

[LordKnightFandragon]

Naw energy weapons just need to be made so that we fire them in singles or pairs, rather then banks of 8-12.

[cSand]

LordKnightFandragon, on 25 January 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Naw energy weapons just need to be made so that we fire them in singles or pairs, rather then banks of 8-12.

Since we're not gonna get a heat system rework, I'd actually be OK with GH on anything more than 3 energy weapons of any variety. Maybe exclude small lasers and make it 4 for them or something.

Edited by cSand, 25 January 2016 - 05:15 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

cSand, on 25 January 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Since we're not gonna get a heat system rework, I'd actually be OK with GH on anything more than 3 energy weapons of any variety. Maybe exclude small lasers and make it 4 for them or something.

I would prefer a system where your energy weapon cycle time increases depending on how many energy weapons you have in cool-down. You want to fire six Meds and two Larges together? Alrighty, but it's gonna take twelve seconds before you can fire any one of them again!

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 25 January 2016 - 05:19 PM.

[cSand]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

I would prefer a system where your energy weapon cycle time increases depending on how many energy weapons you have in cool-down. You want to fire six Meds and two Larges together? Alrighty, but it's gonna take twelve seconds before you can fire any one of them again!

Yep that works too.

Although, I like the idea of an Alpha Strike meaning shutdown time, or damn close.

[Y E O N N E]

cSand, on 25 January 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Yep that works too.

Although, I like the idea of an Alpha Strike meaning shutdown time, or damn close.

That can still be a thing simply to limit how much you can fire at the top end so nobody one-shots 65+ ton 'Mechs.

[1453 R]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

Inner Sphere Plasma Rifles, Clan Plasma Cannons, and Clan Chemical Lasers are all true-to-BT energy weapons with ammo requirements.

I really, really want Plasma Rifles. Oh yes, heat-inducing AC/10s that weight six tons? Where do I sign?

Sphere Plasma rifles over Clan plasma cannons are one of the places where the Sphere just inarguably flat-out wins compared to the Clan tech. I'm not as up on my TT rules as someone who's actually played the game...but Plasma Rifles are high-energy, high-impact cannons perfectly suitable as primary weapons that combine the best parts of PPCs and autocannons with what amounts to impact napalm. A Warhammer with plasma rifles where PPCs used to be would be kinda nightmareish, really. Or anything with plasma rifles where PPCs used to be.

Plasma Cannons are oversized, overweight flamers with slightly better range and ammunition issues. Eugh.

Heh...realistically, all the CLANZ OP nonsense would go away really quick if the timeline advanced to Civil War-era or later. The Sphere gets all the best toys later, while the Clans mostly coast on their early fundamental tech superiority. And screw the pooch but good with ProtoMechs, a technology so bogus, problematical, and ultimately irrelevant that the Sphere never even bothered to try and reverse-engineer it.

GJ, Smoked Jaggers. GJ.

[Y E O N N E]

1453 R, on 25 January 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

Sphere Plasma rifles over Clan plasma cannons are one of the places where the Sphere just inarguably flat-out wins compared to the Clan tech. I'm not as up on my TT rules as someone who's actually played the game...but Plasma Rifles are high-energy, high-impact cannons perfectly suitable as primary weapons that combine the best parts of PPCs and autocannons with what amounts to impact napalm. A Warhammer with plasma rifles where PPCs used to be would be kinda nightmareish, really. Or anything with plasma rifles where PPCs used to be.

Plasma Cannons are oversized, overweight flamers with slightly better range and ammunition issues. Eugh.

Heh...realistically, all the CLANZ OP nonsense would go away really quick if the timeline advanced to Civil War-era or later. The Sphere gets all the best toys later, while the Clans mostly coast on their early fundamental tech superiority. And screw the pooch but good with ProtoMechs, a technology so bogus, problematical, and ultimately irrelevant that the Sphere never even bothered to try and reverse-engineer it.

GJ, Smoked Jaggers. GJ.

Oh my god, Light PPCs, Snub-nosed PPCs, Plasma Rifles, Light ACs, and MagShots would, together, obsolete just about everything else in the IS or Clan arsenals except Heavy Lasers. Would be a shame if somebody were to actively spike the Clans' heat while ripping through their armor...

It's evil and I want it.

Also, lore-speak, the Clans are ultimately more backwards and mentally deficient than the Inner Sphere. It's no wonder they all but ceased to exist by the Republic era. Ain't nobody want to put up with that ****...

[Lykaon]

Bonger Bob, on 25 January 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

so yeah, was in a round today seeing the usual lazor vomit spam at long ranges before any real engagement is taking place and thought "what if lazors and ppc's had ammo requirements ?"

instant end to the meta-jam-your-mech-full-of-lazors and go spam till you drop, people would be far more cautious and conservative, trying to go for well placed shots over spam due to ammo.

just imagine if ammo was scaled to weapon size ( like it is for AC ballistics currently ) how much ERLL or PPC spam would you see ??

added bonus of a lot less of the "opps i hit you because i was testing my alpha heat gen" as people are moving off at the start of rounds.

basically it comes down to : you don't see people with AC20's etc wasting shots that are unlikely to land damage, how great would it be if every weapon in the game was used like that.

it could extend to differing ammo types, like an ammo that is high heat generation but higher damage with a smaller ammo per ton stack or an ammo that has average heat with medium damage but more ammo per ton. Another could have lowered damage but better range with less heat. So many options to expand game play.

only problem would be the lore.......and....well........we know how PGI handles lore.....so problems ???? lol

just a thought to dream ( or have nightmares ) about, lol

Here's the thing about this idea. Energy weapons already have effects that limit their use.

Heat is a limited but replenishing resource.You can not fire large volumes of energy based damage without building high amounts of heat.There is also weapon cooldown that places a limit on how frequently a weapon can be fired.

If you honestly feel the energy weapon use in game is in need of adjusting then why not use pre-existing mechanics to address the issue?

Think there are to many large lasers being fired in to short of a period of time then how about suggesting an increase in weapon cooldowns?

What I find is the issue you have is not all that much of a problem. a few probing shots from very far away rarely applies any significant damage. And when it does apply significant damage then the weapon is doing what it is suppose to do. A PPCfor example is a long range weapon it is suppose to hit targets at long ranges.The PPC "pays" for this with low projectile speeds (unquirked) and no ability to deal damage at 90m or less. The ER-PPC has it's very limiting heat to keep it in check.

ER Large lasers should be fired at long ranges it is after all an Exstended Range laser.

[B0oN]

So the current IS easymode isn´t enough ?
How about an "exterminatus consumable" ?
How about an orbital barrage from a SpaceMarine BattleBarge ?

How about ... let´s use what we have and balance THAT FIRST instead of shoehorning in some more weapons ?

[Pjwned]

I wouldn't be opposed to adding energy weapons that do require ammo, such as the plasma rifles mentioned above.

Changing current energy weapons to require ammo though? No, absolutely not.

[wanderer]

Cue people swapping to whatever combination of laservomit/dakka will get them the optimal most-damage shot.

Seriously, people. This is a useless change, because the problem has, was, and always will be perfect-and-instant convergence.

Best of all, being able to deliver this is considered the skill of the game, and anything that might even possibly make this more difficult or non-instant is regarded as slaying the Sacred Cow of Meta.

Lorewise, it takes -time- to get targets locked in- snapshotting would generally lead to missed or inaccurate fire.

And yet, for some reason despite missiles needing a lock time to get shots even in the general location of the target (never mind being able to put every missile into the exact spot you aim for- that's just for getting most of the missiles somewhere on-target), the idea that to be able to aim perfectly with direct-fire weaponry without some kind of sensor assist is anathema to many. Note, not cone-of-fire or some LOLRANDOM result without sensor lockon- just not "every single weapon hits the same spot on a target you don't have sensor data on". And predictably so, at that. You should always know that, say your two Gauss rifles will hit X amount apart at Y distance on your Jagermech, for example if you don't have that dorito and paperdoll.



Stay on target...

That'd increase TTK immediately and fix the actual problem, vs. endless nerfcycles that only shift it to the newest optimal collection of guns.

Edited by wanderer, 25 January 2016 - 05:52 PM.

[wanderer]

1453 R, on 25 January 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

Plasma Cannons are oversized, overweight flamers with slightly better range and ammunition issues. Eugh.

Well, if you call "PPC range flamer" slightly better range, anyway. And that one plasma cannon hit would deliver 3d6 heat vs. the 2 heat points a flamer does.

Flamers in TT are a bit more sensible compared to MWO instead of constant blasts of flame, they're either short gouts (heat mode) or more focused (like a cutting torch) short blasts in damage mode.