53 replies to this topic

[Joshua Obrien]

I'll start off by saying that I've been here for the whole sha-bang. From the 6 ppc one shot stalker, LRM-a-geddon when they first introduced the artemis, all the way to the breakfast game when everyone had poptarts. I saw the anger presented when ghost heat was implemented and they added the charge feature to the gauss rifle.

That being said, I think it's high time we removed some of these archaic additions and start reverting things back towards TT value.

1. Remove the charge time completely from both IS and Clan Gauss rifles.
-This was implemented to stop poptarting, which was fixed when they added JJ screen shake.

2. Remove ghost heat from the game while keeping a (SMALL) penalty for firing more than 2 ppcs at once.
-Ghost heat was a bandaid fix that seems to have rooted itself in the game's mechanics.

3. While we're on the subject of PPCs we should make them less poopy and more scary.
-Add a 3 second charge timer on them that increases the damage they do while slowing
the projectile down.

Example: Just clicking the fire key would keep them the way they are now. Holding down
The fire key would charge the projectile making it larger and do more damage
The larger projectile would also spread more damage across the mech but
Essentially be more deadly.

- The projectile speed could basically go from it's current speed and damage all the way
Down to a borderline LRM speed and do double it's damage.

- Allow the charge to be held onto for 5 seconds before it's either used or forced to be
Put on cooldown I.E use it or lose it.

- While charging the projectile it could show a blue glow that seems to get brighter as the
Charge reaches it's apex.

- Keep the minimum range on PPCs and no minimum range on ERPPCs. So you'd need
ERPPCs to brawl.

- Not only would this make the weapon super fun to use, but also makes it an extremely
Versatile weapon that can be used both for sniping and brawling.

3. I'm all for quirks on a mech (I've always loved IS) but for god's sake help clanners out. Keep the burn time for their Large lasers but reduce the heat they generate. Make their gauss rifles faster, and for some flavor (I know it's not cannon but w/e) Make their ppc's purple or something that makes them stand out from the IS ones, I mean their lasers are already different colors.



But yeah that's pretty much all I've got. I took a year break from this game and came back to see that ghost heat is still at thing....glorious.

Edited by Joshua Obrien, 26 January 2016 - 01:59 AM.

[El Bandito]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

1. Remove the charge time completely from both IS and Clan Gauss rifles.
-This was implemented to stop poptarting, which was fixed when they added JJ screen shake.

JJ shake did very little to curb poptarting since the shakes stop immediately after cutting of JJs. It was the combination of Gauss charge + PPCs heat + JJ heat + JJ boost nerf + AC and PPC velocity nerfs + leg damage, on top of JJ shake, that had curbed poptarting.

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

2. Remove ghost heat from the game while keeping a (SMALL) penalty for firing more than 2 ppcs at once.
-Ghost heat was a bandaid fix that seems to have rooted itself in the game's mechanics.

Then people will just spam 5-6 Large class laser alphas. Combined with your proposed removal of Gauss charge, say goodbye to MWO's population.


Seriously, just how long have you truly been here? I am guessing that you weren't here for most of the Clan invasion, and just recently came back.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 January 2016 - 02:23 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

I think it's time for another balancing thread!

[Red Shrike]

While the above won't fix all of MWO's problems, if combined with other ideas, it just might.

El Bandito, on 26 January 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Then people will just spam 5-6 Large class laser alphas. Combined with your proposed removal of Gauss charge, say goodbye to MWO's population.

Boating should be curbed to the point where it's either very difficult or very risky. imo

[DrxAbstract]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

That being said, I think it's high time we removed some of these archaic additions and start reverting things back towards TT value.

TT values are based on an entirely different medium. No.

Quote

1. Remove the charge time completely from both IS and Clan Gauss rifles.
-This was implemented to stop poptarting, which was fixed when they added JJ screen shake.

The charge time was implemented primarily to make it harder to brawl using Gauss. This was combined with ballistic velocity changes and screen shake. Poptarting, however, was not 'fixed' until they made the Jump Jet Thrust mechanic horribly inefficient for every tonnage class capable of doing it.

Quote

2. Remove ghost heat from the game while keeping a (SMALL) penalty for firing more than 2 ppcs at once.
-Ghost heat was a bandaid fix that seems to have rooted itself in the game's mechanics.

As long as Mechs exist with multiple energy hardpoints, and the tonnage to utilize them, Ghost Heat is necessary to keep them on a leash. Sorry, but a 'small' heat penalty on PPCs does absolutely nothing to stop the horrors people could unleash without Ghost Heat.

Quote

3. While we're on the subject of PPCs we should make them less poopy and more scary.
-Add a 3 second charge timer on them that increases the damage they do while slowing
the projectile down.

Example: Just clicking the fire key would keep them the way they are now. Holding down
The fire key would charge the projectile making it larger and do more damage
The larger projectile would also spread more damage across the mech but
Essentially be more deadly.

- The projectile speed could basically go from it's current speed and damage all the way
Down to a borderline LRM speed and do double it's damage.

- Allow the charge to be held onto for 5 seconds before it's either used or forced to be
Put on cooldown I.E use it or lose it.

- While charging the projectile it could show a blue glow that seems to get brighter as the
Charge reaches it's apex.

- Keep the minimum range on PPCs and no minimum range on ERPPCs. So you'd need
ERPPCs to brawl.

- Not only would this make the weapon super fun to use, but also makes it an extremely
Versatile weapon that can be used both for sniping and brawling.

Don't talk about bringing MWO closer to TT values and then suggest something as nonsensical as this, especially in conjunction with the removal of Ghost Heat. Really take the time to think this one through...

Quote

But yeah that's pretty much all I've got. I took a year break from this game and came back to see that ghost heat is still at thing....glorious.

You've been here for the whole sha-bang yet you havn't been here for the whole sha-bang... Pretty contradictory. Anyway, NO to all of these poorly conceived ideas... Except maybe Clan PPC color.

[Joshua Obrien]

El Bandito, on 26 January 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

JJ shake did very little to curb poptarting since the shakes stop immediately after cutting of JJs. It was the combination of Gauss charge + PPCs heat + JJ heat + JJ boost nerf + AC and PPC velocity nerfs + leg damage, on top of JJ shake, that had curbed poptarting.




Then people will just spam 5-6 Large class laser alphas. Combined with your proposed removal of Gauss charge, say goodbye to MWO's population.


Seriously, just how long have you truly been here? I am guessing that you weren't here for most of the Clan invasion, and just recently came back.

To answer your question on how long I was gone, roughly about a year and a half, while occasionally popping in and out of the forums to see how things were going.

[Red Shrike]

DrxAbstract, on 26 January 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

As long as Mechs exist with multiple energy hardpoints, and the tonnage to utilize them, Ghost Heat is necessary to keep them on a leash.

The community's focus on laser vomit shows that there is either no leash, or the leash is too long. We should shorten it by at least half.

[Joshua Obrien]

DrxAbstract, on 26 January 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

TT values are based on an entirely different medium. No.


The charge time was implemented primarily to make it harder to brawl using Gauss. This was combined with ballistic velocity changes and screen shake. Poptarting, however, was not 'fixed' until they made the Jump Jet Thrust mechanic horribly inefficient for every tonnage class capable of doing it.



As long as Mechs exist with multiple energy hardpoints, and the tonnage to utilize them, Ghost Heat is necessary to keep them on a leash. Sorry, but a 'small' heat penalty on PPCs does absolutely nothing to stop the horrors people could unleash without Ghost Heat.


Don't talk about bringing MWO closer to TT values and then suggest something as nonsensical as this, especially in conjunction with the removal of Ghost Heat. Really take the time to think this one through...


You've been here for the whole sha-bang yet you havn't been here for the whole sha-bang... Pretty contradictory. Anyway, NO to all of these poorly conceived ideas... Except maybe Clan PPC color.

Well sir, I'd like to see you offer better ideas other than nonconstructive criticism. And I'm talking about TT as in Heat, damage and role warfare.
and as for the charge mechanic on the PPC http://www.sarna.net...i/PPC_Capacitor I know it's not cannon in terms of the timeline but then again most of the things in this game are already non cannon as it is.

Edited by Joshua Obrien, 26 January 2016 - 02:50 AM.

[adamts01]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

2. Remove ghost heat from the game while keeping a (SMALL) penalty for firing more than 2 ppcs at once.
-Ghost heat was a bandaid fix that seems to have rooted itself in the game's mechanics.

A "small" penalty for firing more than one weapon is still essentially ghost heat. As for the rest of your post, you're just asking to trade our current goofy mechanics for your new goofy mechanics.

[Joshua Obrien]

adamts01, on 26 January 2016 - 02:53 AM, said:

A "small" penalty for firing more than one weapon is still essentially ghost heat. As for the rest of your post, you're just asking to trade our current goofy mechanics for your new goofy mechanics.

Even I acknowledge that the 6ppc stalker was a huge problem, what with the one shotting stuff and what not. So something has to be in place in order to stop something like that from re-emerging. And as for ghost heat in general, it was already a bad idea to begin with.

[adamts01]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 03:03 AM, said:

Even I acknowledge that the 6ppc stalker was a huge problem, what with the one shotting stuff and what not. So something has to be in place in order to stop something like that from re-emerging. And as for ghost heat in general, it was already a bad idea to begin with.

What kind of "small penalty" did you have in mind if not extra heat? I Think the best solution is a much lower heat cap, much higher dissipation and a spread effect that increases with the number of weapons fired at once. That would absolutely solve all the alpha boat problems. While Ghost Heat might be a bandaid, it did work very well. It fixed most of the problem mechs without hurting the weak performers.

[Joshua Obrien]

adamts01, on 26 January 2016 - 03:38 AM, said:

What kind of "small penalty" did you have in mind if not extra heat? I Think the best solution is a much lower heat cap, much higher dissipation and a spread effect that increases with the number of weapons fired at once. That would absolutely solve all the alpha boat problems. While Ghost Heat might be a bandaid, it did work very well. It fixed most of the problem mechs without hurting the weak performers.

If anything I'd say only allow a certain number of PPCs to be fired within a certain period of time. so the max you could alpha with would be 2 but you'd be allowed to stagger fire them without a heat penalty.

[adamts01]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

If anything I'd say only allow a certain number of PPCs to be fired within a certain period of time. so the max you could alpha with would be 2 but you'd be allowed to stagger fire them without a heat penalty.

That would play out exactly how it already does.

[Joshua Obrien]

adamts01, on 26 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

That would play out exactly how it already does.

negative, the ppcs if fired in succession in too close of an interval generates a massive amount of ghost heat. I'm saying that if you chain fire them you shouldn't receive the penalty

[DrxAbstract]

Red Shrike, on 26 January 2016 - 02:38 AM, said:

The community's focus on laser vomit shows that there is either no leash, or the leash is too long. We should shorten it by at least half.

That has a lot to do with Lasers being easy to use, plentiful energy hard points on many variants and in general a very simple, no BS weapon class - that's the appeal. The 'community's focus' is not indicative of there actually being an issue with Lasers. Looking at the way Missiles and Ballistics behave in MWO suggests there's a problem with those weapons, and those weapons should be looked at, as well as Energy hard point counts. Lasers themselves are just fine... Except the Clan ER Large.

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

Well sir, I'd like to see you offer better ideas other than nonconstructive criticism. And I'm talking about TT as in Heat, damage and role warfare.
and as for the charge mechanic on the PPC http://www.sarna.net...i/PPC_Capacitor I know it's not cannon in terms of the timeline but then again most of the things in this game are already non cannon as it is.

I have absolutely no obligation to provide ideas. I am, however, well within my right to come here and poke holes in yours. I also didn't say there was no such thing as 'charging' PPCs. What I said was your idea is nonsensical; It potentially turns IS PPCs into slow Clan PPCs. While an ideal iteration would be simply to add 'PPC Capacitor' as separate equipment like BAP or Jump Jets and go from there instead of an inherent PPC trait. As for my criticism being constructive or not - that's your opinion.

[Joshua Obrien]

DrxAbstract, on 26 January 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

That has a lot to do with Lasers being easy to use, plentiful energy hard points on many variants and in general a very simple, no BS weapon class - that's the appeal. The 'community's focus' is not indicative of there actually being an issue with Lasers. Looking at the way Missiles and Ballistics behave in MWO suggests there's a problem with those weapons, and those weapons should be looked at, as well as Energy hard point counts. Lasers themselves are just fine... Except the Clan ER Large.



I have absolutely no obligation to provide ideas. I am, however, well within my right to come here and poke holes in yours. I also didn't say there was no such thing as 'charging' PPCs. What I said was your idea is nonsensical; It potentially turns IS PPCs into slow Clan PPCs. While an ideal iteration would be simply to add 'PPC Capacitor' as separate equipment like BAP or Jump Jets and go from there instead of an inherent PPC trait. As for my criticism being constructive or not - that's your opinion.

Okay so please inform me how much you read of my OP, because if you did read it as much as you're claiming you would have seen where I said firing the ppc without charging would result in it's current iteration, that means Speed damage and projectile size. As you charge it, it would slow down but increase the damage and projectile size. And I never said it wasn't your right to "punch holes" in my OP, but it sure helps your image and rebuttal if you throw in some ideas that would be better than mine or even something along the lines of "Things are fine the way they are"

[Curccu]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

I'll start off by saying that I've been here for the whole sha-bang. From the 6 ppc one shot stalker, LRM-a-geddon when they first introduced the artemis, all the way to the breakfast game when everyone had poptarts. I saw the anger presented when ghost heat was implemented and they added the charge feature to the gauss rifle.

That being said, I think it's high time we removed some of these archaic additions and start reverting things back towards TT value.

1. Remove the charge time completely from both IS and Clan Gauss rifles.
-This was implemented to stop poptarting, which was fixed when they added JJ screen shake.

Nah Gauss is good with charge, it's not supposed to be better than any other ballistics to do everything.

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

2. Remove ghost heat from the game while keeping a (SMALL) penalty for firing more than 2 ppcs at once.
-Ghost heat was a bandaid fix that seems to have rooted itself in the game's mechanics.

There are other way nastier weapons than PPCs when boated in the game.. I would loosen ghostheat but not totally remove it.

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

3. While we're on the subject of PPCs we should make them less poopy and more scary.
-Add a 3 second charge timer on them that increases the damage they do while slowing
the projectile down.

Example: Just clicking the fire key would keep them the way they are now. Holding down
The fire key would charge the projectile making it larger and do more damage
The larger projectile would also spread more damage across the mech but
Essentially be more deadly.

- The projectile speed could basically go from it's current speed and damage all the way
Down to a borderline LRM speed and do double it's damage.

- Allow the charge to be held onto for 5 seconds before it's either used or forced to be
Put on cooldown I.E use it or lose it.

- While charging the projectile it could show a blue glow that seems to get brighter as the
Charge reaches it's apex.

- Keep the minimum range on PPCs and no minimum range on ERPPCs. So you'd need
ERPPCs to brawl.

- Not only would this make the weapon super fun to use, but also makes it an extremely
Versatile weapon that can be used both for sniping and brawling.

Wait, what! You want to give PPC an option to shoot glowing hover balls that travel 4 times slower than AC20 projectile, and also keep minimum distance.. I mean what can you with that? afk mechs probably.

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

3. I'm all for quirks on a mech (I've always loved IS) but for god's sake help clanners out. Keep the burn time for their Large lasers but reduce the heat they generate. Make their gauss rifles faster, and for some flavor (I know it's not cannon but w/e) Make their ppc's purple or something that makes them stand out from the IS ones, I mean their lasers are already different colors.

But yeah that's pretty much all I've got. I took a year break from this game and came back to see that ghost heat is still at thing....glorious.

More like make sucky clan mechs less sucky and fine tune few uuber quirked IS mechs. Gauss is already good enough doesn't need any kind of buffs. AND having pink or purple PPCs doesn't really make them better --> help clanners out.

[Nerdboard]

I really dont get why there are always people complaining about ghost heat. I am not gonna say that its the perfect concept but I also cant see the big problems with it? Where does it negatively affect your gameplay other than preventing you from continuously one-shotting heavy mechs without overheating?

And most alternative ideas are usually overcomplicated (weapon energy rating for example). As to the Gauss rifle charge I will agree with most of the answers here that it is still a good mechanic to balance the weapon (also produces a unique feeling which I personally like a lot).

To me the changes you propose read a bit like "I cant instagib everything I point at, I want MW:Call of Duty". Not saying you are like that but this is kindof what it looks like.

[El Bandito]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

negative, the ppcs if fired in succession in too close of an interval generates a massive amount of ghost heat. I'm saying that if you chain fire them you shouldn't receive the penalty

Ghost Heat does not give penalty if you chain fire your PPCs. So, basically the same thing.

[Joshua Obrien]

Nerdboard, on 26 January 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

I really dont get why there are always people complaining about ghost heat. I am not gonna say that its the perfect concept but I also cant see the big problems with it? Where does it negatively affect your gameplay other than preventing you from continuously one-shotting heavy mechs without overheating?

And most alternative ideas are usually overcomplicated (weapon energy rating for example). As to the Gauss rifle charge I will agree with most of the answers here that it is still a good mechanic to balance the weapon (also produces a unique feeling which I personally like a lot).

To me the changes you propose read a bit like "I cant instagib everything I point at, I want MW:Call of Duty". Not saying you are like that but this is kindof what it looks like.

I'm just trying to throw more ideas to make lack luster weapons better so we're not sitting in a laser vomit meta for the rest of the lifespan of this game :-\ otherwise people will start jumping ship if it's nothing but a disco show.