13 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

i say this in pretty much every balance thread, and so i decided id give it its own topic so i can put it to rest.

the process of balancing this game never ends. so long as new content rolls off the assembly line, the balance shifts and another balance pass is needed. the job of balance is an unending one.

i often see "fix balance first" as an excuse not to add things like new weapons, maps or game modes. i dont see anyone use this excuse on mechs, yet new mechs come out with better hardpoints and options than the last wave. we got a 9 missile point mech coming out. is that not going to seriously effect missile balance, and then affect the balance of other weapons to missiles? are quirks going to change to compensate, what will those do to balance?

as you can see its an unending process. there is no such thing as this perfectly balanced game you speak of. game developers have struggled with this dilemma for years and still dont have a solution. so long as pgi has content to sell, they will need to give it selling points. they need to give players a reason to drop their dollar. its not pay to win since changes are slow enough you can keep pace without being too far behind. but it does build up and eventually you need another balance pass to fix everything that has come unraveled.

so pgi, dont let the naysayers keep you from moving forward. so long as the game changes the game lives. when it stops chaniging it dies. dont let it die.

[Ratpoison]

I'm really curious what kind of OP superbuild you think is going to come out of 9 missile points. The heat and ammo requirements for whatever you do will be insane, so your DPS is still going to be about the same as any other missile heavy. Also PGI has never stopped content for balance and never will, they're aware that the people saying to do that are idiots who don't understand all the factors involved. The meta will always shift and cause a need for balance passes, as players adapt to and master the current version of the game, as with any game.

[Raggedyman]

LordNothing, on 27 January 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

the process of balancing this game never ends. so long as new content rolls off the assembly line, the balance shifts and another balance pass is needed. the job of balance is an unending one.

This

One hundred times: This

And if new content isn't added, the game will slowly die as people get bored.

[XX Sulla XX]

LordNothing, on 27 January 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

i say this in pretty much every balance thread, and so i decided id give it its own topic so i can put it to rest.

the process of balancing this game never ends. so long as new content rolls off the assembly line, the balance shifts and another balance pass is needed. the job of balance is an unending one.

i often see "fix balance first" as an excuse not to add things like new weapons, maps or game modes. i dont see anyone use this excuse on mechs, yet new mechs come out with better hardpoints and options than the last wave. we got a 9 missile point mech coming out. is that not going to seriously effect missile balance, and then affect the balance of other weapons to missiles? are quirks going to change to compensate, what will those do to balance?

as you can see its an unending process. there is no such thing as this perfectly balanced game you speak of. game developers have struggled with this dilemma for years and still dont have a solution. so long as pgi has content to sell, they will need to give it selling points. they need to give players a reason to drop their dollar. its not pay to win since changes are slow enough you can keep pace without being too far behind. but it does build up and eventually you need another balance pass to fix everything that has come unraveled.

so pgi, dont let the naysayers keep you from moving forward. so long as the game changes the game lives. when it stops chaniging it dies. dont let it die.

Exactly right. There is not magic instant balance tweak. But we do have the best balance we have probably ever had. And now that we have a baseline for what is viable they need to work on the worst mechs.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Just ask Blizzard about their StarCraft series . Every time you go to play StarCraft II, you have to wait for a patch. Log off, eat dinner, then come back and you will have to wait for a patch lol.

I'm glad PGI keeps trying to balance. If I have one complaint, it is that balance corrections seem to take them too long to implement from time to time. Some stuff gets hotfixes if it is really bad, but some less severe (but obvious) problems sometimes take months.

Overall though, the continuous tweaks are fine by me and shows me that they are always striving.

[Willard Phule]

I just wish they'd balance the cost of everything.

Clan tech is supposed to be more expensive than IS tech simply because it is supposed to be superior. Now that everything has been "balanced" as far as doing damage and range is concerned, how about we "balance" the prices of stuff? There's no sense in paying twice IS cost for equipment that is basically "balanced."

[Mechteric]

Willard Phule, on 27 January 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

I just wish they'd balance the cost of everything.

Clan tech is supposed to be more expensive than IS tech simply because it is supposed to be superior. Now that everything has been "balanced" as far as doing damage and range is concerned, how about we "balance" the prices of stuff? There's no sense in paying twice IS cost for equipment that is basically "balanced."

There's already another thread on this, but basically you're already getting clan mechs for far cheaper than they were in BattleTech, and part of that more expensive upfront cost is the XL engines and other stuff like that included in the stock config. This as opposed to an IS mech, where if you wanted to upgrade to XL you'd be shelling out double the price of the stock mech sometimes just to get it.

That said, there are some clan mechs that are just terrible and still cost a lot, like the Gargoyle and Summoner.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 27 January 2016 - 07:11 AM.

[FupDup]

The exact problem is that PGI doesn't change the balance continuously.

There are usually very long periods of stagnation between balance changes, sometimes spanning an entire year of having a single meta (e.g. PPC/AC, then laser vomit, etc.).

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 27 January 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

The exact problem is that PGI doesn't change the balance continuously.

There are usually very long periods of stagnation between balance changes, sometimes spanning an entire year of having a single meta (e.g. PPC/AC, then laser vomit, etc.).

Multiple nerfs to the worst weapon systems in the game happen more frequently than nerfs to the best weapons in the game.
That says a lot about PGIs balance history. PPCs are the only previously good weapons which got the same number of nerfs as MGs.

4 months until the 4 year anniversary of Flamer Uselessness!


The problem isn't that balance never ends, but that it never starts.

[1Grimbane]

lol the fact a certain chassis has 3 more missile hardpoints than the 6 we are used to as being max hardpoints isn't going to affect missile balance... the only thing that affects is the number of missile hardpoints you have. the number of mount options on a chassis doesn't make a change to the weapon, just how many you can use in one chassis. ridiculous premise

Edited by 1Grimbane, 27 January 2016 - 07:39 AM.

[LordNothing]

tortuousGoddess, on 27 January 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

I'm really curious what kind of OP superbuild you think is going to come out of 9 missile points. The heat and ammo requirements for whatever you do will be insane, so your DPS is still going to be about the same as any other missile heavy. Also PGI has never stopped content for balance and never will, they're aware that the people saying to do that are idiots who don't understand all the factors involved. The meta will always shift and cause a need for balance passes, as players adapt to and master the current version of the game, as with any game.

1Grimbane, on 27 January 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

lol the fact a certain chassis has 3 more missile hardpoints than the 6 we are used to as being max hardpoints isn't going to affect missile balance... the only thing that affects is the number of missile hardpoints you have. the number of mount options on a chassis doesn't make a change to the weapon, just how many you can use in one chassis. ridiculous premise

should point out that the archer was an example only, not the main purpose for the thread. i was mostly trying to illustrate how everything is connected. that adding x changes y. iic may have been a better example. before the glass cannons were released look how many players were terrified that the game would be completely ruined. of course they were blown out of proportion, but then again now we got dual gauss mediums that can sneak in under tonnage limits and do some serious damage. its entirely possible the archer will go either way, predictions on what will really happen dont mean much. if i thought it was gonna be op id have bought one already. i think that hardpoints do affect balance but probibly not as much as quirks or new weapons would.

[Red Shrike]

I don't have anything against PGI trying to balance. Only problem is the way they go about doing so is wrong.

[Xetelian]

6 PPC stalkers and PPCs were on everything 60 damage to one component
Ghost heat hits then
Gauss PPC sync 25-50 damage to one component
Then AC10 PPC sync 30-40 damage to one component
Then AC5 PPC sync 15-30 damage to one component
Now PPCs are trash and difficult to use at max range without quirks

We have the laser vomit meta because we were shifted towards it via nerfs to non-laser weapons, I like the laser meta, I can spread laser damage much more efficiently than I can spread PPFLD alpha strikes. I like that you can't bring 4 PPCs and fire them all at once without ghost heat. This is not a great way to solve the problem but it does solve it.

Balance is an unending challenge for all multiplayer games. I've played 6000 hours of LoL and owned all the champions until 2014 when I stopped playing. They are constantly redesigning champions and creating new ones. That is how they make their money. Their changes to older champions come after years and years of stagnation. So MWO isn't alone in the stagnant balancing of their game. Even the top played multiplayer games have issues with balancing, Ranged Carries have always been over powered in LoL. There were periods when tanks were over powered, long periods where items were over powered and long periods where certain champions were banned from draft play because they were way too strong.

There will always need to be balance changes to something. Nothing is perfect but we've come a long way since the jump sniping and 6 PPC days.


I welcome the changes because it breathes life into the game and I welcome the new mechs because they also breathe life into the game. I'm not going to buy a WHM or a MAD or any other Unseen because I already have 70 mechs and don't need them. All the roles available from sniper to LRMs and brawlers are covered in my collection. That doesn't mean I don't want others to have new mechs.

[Cion]

(runs for his life)