19 replies to this topic

[Lord0fHats]

Frankly, locking them never achieved much imo. The top line Clan mechs are unaffected, as they either have no Jump Jets (Hellbringer, Ebon Jaguar, and Storm Crow) or can manipulate their omnipods to avoid being beaten to death with dead weight Jump Jets (Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf). The only mech that imo is somewhat counter balanced by the locked JJs is the newly released Artic Cheetah and as this subject concerns that mech it is not a mech I think needs this issue looked at.

Especially with the Shadow Cat and Executioner now out, I think it's completely impossible to ignore that the locking of Jump Jets has done little to nothing to actually address overall Clan Balance and has actually crippled several Clan mechs. Most notably the Shadow Cat and Summoner struggle with this, both unable to compete with their peers due to a lack of free tonnage. Both mechs are trapped in a state where they either run too hot, run too little ammo, or are too undergunned compared to their peers. Most noticeable imo is the Shadow Cat's inability to carry even a semi-passable Gauss Build (the SHC will be trapped with insufficient back up weapons, or not enough ammo).

It literally lacks the 1 ton it really needs to effectively carry the weapon (and thats without an ECM) due to having 6 locks jump jets. 6 jump jets is 4 jump jets more than any mech could ever realistically want. Even if Jump jets were stronger than they are now, I wouldn't need 6 of them. No one would.

Strictly speaking, I'm not asking that Clan JJs be unlocked. I know PGI has announced an upcoming balance pass. A big one, so I start this thread with the hope that this is one of the issues they will address because I find it rather frustrating. I've included a Poll with some of the options I thought of that could be used to rebalance this issue.

Most notable in this issue are the Shadow Cat, Summoner, and Executioner.

-The Executioner (8 tons locked) is passable as is, but fails to truly distinguish itself imo so long as it is trapped with Timber Wolf grade firepower at 95 tons. Having 8 of its tons locked into Jump Jets is quite extreme.

-The Shadow Cat (3 Tons locked) lacks hard points, leading one to think it is meant to pack a small number of big guns... Only it doesn't have enough free weight to reasonably do this. Right now the only builds that I think works for it is Medium/Small Pulse + SRMs and the 3 ERLL sniper (which frankly, runs very hot even by Clan standards). The mech needs 1-2 tons more free weight to effectively use Gauss, or more effective laser vomit.

-The Summoner (5 tons locked), especially with the release of the Ebon Jaguar, simply is useless. At max armor, it only has 25 tons, and then the jump jets take it down to 20, weasel your way to 21 by cutting some armor. The Summoner frankly, also suffers from poor omnipod hard points, but even if that were fixed, I think it's extremely limited weight at 70 tons would leave it wanting.

Other Mechs that would benefit from addressing this issue;

-Mist Lynx (3 tons locked), I just sold them all out of my inventory... There's... Just no point... Like the Summoner the Mist Lynx also suffers from bad omnipods (everything in the arms... Giant shield arms...), but even then, with the Artic Cheetah and upcoming Jenner IIC, the Mist Lynx offers nothing. At a low 25 tons, having at least 2 locked in pointless jump jets is really noticeable. The MLX rarely has high alpha damage, but with such limited weight it often has few heat sinks and is very slow to cool down once it starts reaching the red line. Fortunately, this is a weakness that is also shared by the Artic Cheetah. Letting the Mist Lynx remove some jump jets, and a CAP mayhaps, could allow it to fit more DHS to boost its cooling and give it at least something the Artic Cheetah doesn't have.

-Nova (2.5 Tons locked), could gain some ground on the Storm Crow with another heat sink for its high alpha, very hot, builds. Granted, the Nova is up for rescale. A smaller Nova might not need any help at all.

Thoughts on how to address;

Unlocking the Jump jets across the board is an option, but honestly I don't think the Timber Wolf needs the buff and frankly the Artic Cheetah would go from really strong to full on god mode if it could cut down to just 1-2 JJs. That locked weight on the Cheetah is the chief in keeping it from being a game breaker.

My personal preference is that some of the Jump Jets on some mechs be unlocked. Namely, I prefer this because really an extra 1-2 tons is really all the Shadow Cat and Summoner need on this front to get out of their rut and up to a more viable field. The Executioner with 8 more tons... might be OP on top of MASC, but with four more could at least boast firepower more worthy of an assault mech. Leaving 1-2 jets locked on these chassis' but allowing players to remove the rest at will imo is the best option.

Other options that came to mind though included releasing variants of these mechs with legs and torso omni-pods that lacked jump jets, allowing players to choose whether or not to have any in the same manner as the Timber Wolf and Kit Fox. Also the option of adjusting Clan Jump Jet weight to mitigate the issue, but that would inadvertently be a shadow buff to the Artic Cheetah which I find undesirable.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 25 July 2015 - 05:34 AM.

[VinJade]

the thing is omni mechs have locked items as part of the machine itself, be it a Nova or a mist lynx, they need to stay locked.

[Lord0fHats]

VinJade, on 25 July 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

the thing is omni mechs have locked items as part of the machine itself, be it a Nova or a mist lynx, they need to stay locked.

I don't care about lore. I never have and I never will. Honestly, these forums and the constant roadblocking by lore fanatics have probably forever killed what little enthusiasm I had left for the lore of Battletech

Balance comes first (and thankfully, PGI at least seems on board with this to a degree given the recent unlocking of the Adder's worthless flamer).

Edited by Lord0fHats, 25 July 2015 - 01:00 PM.

[Xhaleon]

Lord0fHats, on 25 July 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

Balance comes first

And that's why they won't get their jumpjets unlocked. Less jumpjets means more gunbagging. Wait till another mech of the same weight with a more appropriate payload capacity for your playstyle is introduced, or try another chassis of another weight.

The primary problems of the mobility-focused mechs you listed is that their mobility is gimped and not as powerful as they are supposed to be. MASC doesn't let the Shaddy Kitty go as fast as it should and 5 jumpjets are only just barely adequate for a Thor to fly up to all the important spots. Ammunition for most weapons still isn't doubled alongside the doubled armor, hurting some of those mechs and their configs (especially the Thor Prime which was a little silly design to begin with). And for the smaller mechs like the Mist Lynx, the truedubs system penalizes them for the crime of only being able to fit a small engine, rather than simply giving them 10 free, fully-functional DHS regardless of where the sinks are placed.

Concern yourself with the core problems of the game first before asking for more space to have more guns.

Edited by Xhaleon, 25 July 2015 - 01:53 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

Xhaleon, on 25 July 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

The primary problems of the mobility-focused mechs you listed is that their mobility is gimped and not as powerful as they are supposed to be. MASC doesn't let the Shaddy Kitty go as fast as it should and 5 jumpjets are only just barely adequate for a Thor to fly up to all the important spots.

5 Jump jets take me nowhere I can't get with just 2-3. Jump Jets in MWO have a rather hard diminishing return value (even in the hay day of pop tarting, you didn't use more than 4 tops). MASC honestly imo, does nothing for the SHC. It's already fast and with high weapon hard points for poking... Which it can't utilize well due to insufficient free weight.

I honestly have never agreed with people who want to up the ammo on ballistics. The damage per ton on ballistics isn't the problem so much as travel time to target makes ballistics that aren't the GR less effective for getting damage where you want it to be.

The problem with mobility mechs like the Summoner and Shadowcat isn't that their not mobile (they're very mobile), it's that they're so lacking in firepower being mobile isn't of much use. Compare the Summoner and Shadow Cat to their most immediate counter parts, the Grasshopper and the Black Jack, both of which are mobile and carry the firepower to make use of it. EDIT: Also probably a worthy comparison between the Shadow Cat and Ice Ferret, the later of which is a much better mech even without ECM or Jump Jets simply because it can carry enough up front damage into a fight to hurt something and run away before it can respond.

Mind you, I also think TrueDubs is a problem, but it effects only a few mechs, two of which would still be trash even if the problem was fixed because of bad hard points or being a giant CT with giant Legs, so to me it's just not something I concern myself with.

Quote

Concern yourself with the core problems of the game first before asking for more space to have more guns.

I am

Allow me to rephrase a line for you;

"And for the mechs like the Shadow Cat, the locked jump jets system penalizes them for the crime of only having a bunch of Jump Jets in a Rule Book for another game."

Edited by Lord0fHats, 25 July 2015 - 03:32 PM.

[VinJade]

I will grant you the Adder's flamer but that is different compared to the JJs on mechs.

Locked JJs give some mechs a feeling all of their own, making them different in a good way.

it also makes you build your mech's weapon package.

good example is my mist lynx locked JJs and yet if done well can be deadly combat unit or a good recon unit.

is it hampered due to a lot of it's weight being eaten up by its jets?
yes and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Xhaleon]

Lord0fHats, on 25 July 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

5 Jump jets take me nowhere I can't get with just 2-3. Jump Jets in MWO have a rather hard diminishing return value (even in the hay day of pop tarting, you didn't use more than 4 tops). MASC honestly imo, does nothing for the SHC. It's already fast and with high weapon hard points for poking... Which it can't utilize well due to insufficient free weight.

Have you ever tried jumping to certain tall spots that would have let you surprise the enemy and safely attack ones with most of their weapons in the torso (that can't aim very high)? I seldom attempt doing that too, but only because the current state of jump jets is too weak to even let you try. The thrust is also so low that it makes you an easy target whenever you try to fly to the top of anywhere and makes it difficult to fall back down safely after the attack is done. That's why you go for 2 to 3 jump jets, because even 5 isn't enough to do all the fun stuff, so why bother an excessive amount? Personally I'd go for at least four jets especially on heavier mechs because then can then almost freely fly around Mining Colony, that map is a real jumper's haven.

Should jumpjets be even only half as powerful as they should be, it would greatly open up the current thinking of how the maps flow, the possible lanes for people to travel, where you can approach and engage an enemy from, how fast and effective an escape from a bad situation using jumpjets can be, how big of a mech you can expect to find being all sneaky-like on a rooftop, how wide an actual firing line can be without terrain restricting the jumpers, etc etc. I mean, if it means a limited return of pop-tarting I wouldn't mind. The jumpers you mentioned don't need huge upfront firepower to compete if they're always the one getting the first shot off in hit and runs. The optimal playstyle they are built for is just held back by the current game mechanics.

Would making jumpers be able to completely break a map's flow and attack from cheesy sniping spots be a good idea? That's kind of the point of jumpjets in the first place. If an assault mech sacrifices 6 tons of space for jets, it should get that kind of return on investment back. The Highlander would be looked at a lot more favorably if it could leap up to 45 meters in one go instead of these stupid hoverjets it has right now.

I really need to restate my main concern here; locked jump jets help distinguish mech chassis from one another and they are part of the reason why there are so many mechs to begin with. I would have preferred if more things were locked or restricted in general to help distinguish any one chassis from the rest, and because there will always be another mech that can fill a person's specific needs. It is only in the strange world of MWO where omnis are actually less customizable than their standard counterparts that this problem crops up...

[Lord0fHats]

Xhaleon, on 26 July 2015 - 01:51 AM, said:

I seldom attempt doing that too, but only because the current state of jump jets is too weak to even let you try.

I do it all the time. Probably why I noticed all the little 'steps' that lay around maps that help me get up into high places using just 1-2 JJs. Mining Collective is a really good example of this as well. 1 jump jet is enough to reach just about anywhere, so long as you jump onto the 'steps' to get there.

Quote

I would have preferred if more things were locked or restricted in general to help distinguish any one chassis from the rest, and because there will always be another mech that can fill a person's specific needs.

Variety is nice, except I'm not asking that we lose variety. I'm asking that we face facts, and that there are mechs that are gimped by having too many jump jets.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 26 July 2015 - 02:11 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

I had suggested somewhere, that mechs would have a range, based on the default number of Jump jets, to choose from.
For example the Summoner/Thor has 5 Jump Jets, by default. So you'd be able to either reduce them to 3, or increase them to 7, or anything in between 3-7.
A mech that has 6 JJs, like the Mist Lynx, would have a choice between 4-8 JJs or a mech with 4 JJs, would have a choice between 2-6 JJs and so on and so on

The point is that the Omnimechs, in my opinion, need some limited customization when it comes to locked equipment like this.
But keep in mind that this is coming from a person, who neither owns, nor plays Clan mechs.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 26 July 2015 - 04:49 AM.

[VinJade]

For a change JV I agree with you about Omni mechs needing some limitations.

I know this by using both a non-jump capable mech(Adder) and a mech with Jump Jets(Mist Lynx) and the locked items gives the machines their feel of being unique.

[Firewuff]

Tw is one of their top mechs. They dont need a buff.

[Lord0fHats]

Firewuff, on 26 July 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Tw is one of their top mechs. They dont need a buff.

Locking the JJs has no meaningful effect on the TBR, since it can just choose to not use any of the JJ omni-pods (The S variant). Especially with the release of the A variant, which allows Timbers to skip the S Right Torso and still carry the same number of laser weapons.

Even then, I specifically said I'd prefer a change that would leave the S variant Jump Jets locked.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 27 July 2015 - 03:26 AM.

[Top Leliel]

I like the idea of omnipods without jump jets for the Shadow Cat, Thor and others, while keeping the default omnipods locked with the jump jets.

That way, it would keep true to the lore(Omnimechs have locked jumpjets if they have them available at all, but can swap out configurations easily) while removing the issue with the Shadow Cat not having enough tonnage for ECM, Gauss ammo AND backup lasers.

[Xhaleon]

Top Leliel, on 27 July 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Shadow Cat not having enough tonnage for Gauss ammo

That can be mostly resolved through fixing another problem the game has; improperly scaled ammunition counts versus the doubled armor (and 12man teams worth of meatshields, wew). If gauss rifle ammo was scaled to its proper canon amounts, the default SHC prime would have 32 rounds at its disposal. That's more than sufficient for any match. Optionally drop it to 24 for an extra half ton of armor to cover the arms.

[Nik Reaper]

Yeah, after quirks and all the things till from clan lunch till now I really don't see any of the current meta mechs gaining even more power if they could remove a JJ or two, and if they could just leave them locked, and yes it creates a case by case system but that seems like the only thing to do considering mechs are not all made equal in the source material, some are literary filler units made to be cheap and mass produced and some are made for jobs MMO doesn't represent as it should so no wounder some of them need help to work.

[Funkin Disher]

Can you add another option to the poll?
"Unlock all but 1 jump jet per side torso/leg" or reworded "Unlocked JJs to a minimum of one per omnipod"
Cause I'd vote for that one.

You don't have fully unlocked JJs, but you have flexibility in how much you devote to your jumping.

Under this idea mechs that take the minimum possible JJs gain:
Mist Lynx: 2 tons
Arctic Cheetah: 1 ton
Shadow cat: 1 ton
Nova: 1 ton
Timberwolf S variant: 2 tons
Summoner: 2 Tons
Executioner: 4 tons
Dire Wolf S variant: 0 tons

So the ACH gets a significant tonnage boost to add to its list of advantages, the timberwolf gets a couple more options in its already large selection and everybody else benefits quite nicely.

Honestly I reckon the Cheetah needs a little toning down (as great as it is, it blows a little too much competition out of the water) and Timby shouldnt have got JJs at all (isnt that why the Mk II was made in the first place?) but thats an argument for another thread.

Edited by Funkin Disher, 30 July 2015 - 05:57 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

@Funkin, the TBR doesnt need additional tonnage free. It's fine where it is. The problem children are the Nova, and the Summoner, maybe the Executioner. The Lynx would be fine if we could remove the BAP.

[VinJade]

or here is an idea just make a different omni pod set that has no jjs at all and just make it another bland vanilla cookie cutter cut out with no personality however lock out jump jets for that vanilla pod, there problem solved.

might as well go that way since you want to strip the personality from the mech.

[Zephonarch II]

The Summoner is embarrassing for a Heavy mech. The Nova is fine if fitted with the right builds. Any other mechs, I don't know. I can't conclude on anything for mechs I haven't piloted.

[Generic Internetter]

Lord0fHats, on 25 July 2015 - 05:23 AM, said:

Most notably the Shadow Cat and Summoner struggle with this, both unable to compete with their peers due to a lack of free tonnage. Both mechs are trapped in a state where they either run too hot, run too little ammo, or are too undergunned compared to their peers.

The Shadow Cat has fantastic jump capabilities for it's weight. If you're not using the jump jets as a key part of your SHC playstyle, you're not using the SHC properly. Same applies for the Myst Linx.

Lord0fHats, on 25 July 2015 - 05:23 AM, said:

6 jump jets is 4 jump jets more than any mech could ever realistically want.

...More than you want. I want 6 JJ's.

Lord0fHats, on 25 July 2015 - 05:23 AM, said:

-The Shadow Cat (3 Tons locked) lacks hard points, leading one to think it is meant to pack a small number of big guns... Only it doesn't have enough free weight to reasonably do this. Right now the only builds that I think works for it is Medium/Small Pulse + SRMs and the 3 ERLL sniper (which frankly, runs very hot even by Clan standards).

It's not supposed to pack big guns; That's the "herp derp ERLL spam" mentality. If you're trying to to run a SC using just big guns, you're not using it properly.

3x SSRM6 + 2SL is an amazing hit-and-run build. Chews through light mechs like candy; Arctic Cheetahs, Jenners, you name it.

Ultra-AC/10 + 2ML has a ferocious bite to it. 34 damage in the space of 1 second on a medium mech? While poptarting / peeking? Works for me.

MASC makes the SC just so much more mobile, and such a menace for peeking. The SC is great as it is.

Lord0fHats, on 25 July 2015 - 05:23 AM, said:

-Mist Lynx (3 tons locked), I just sold them all out of my inventory... There's... Just no point... [...] the Mist Lynx offers nothing. At a low 25 tons, having at least 2 locked in pointless jump jets is really noticeable. Letting the Mist Lynx remove some jump jets, and a CAP mayhaps, could allow it to fit more DHS to boost its cooling and give it at least something the Artic Cheetah doesn't have.

"Nothing"...? How about the best chassis-wide JJ capabilities in the game?

Again, if you're not basing your MLX playstyle around JJs, you're not using it properly.

The MLX cools just fine if you run 4x SPL.

The MLX is a thorn in the target's side with 1x LPL + ECM ...or 2x MPL + ECM + TC-II

The MLX ruins someone's fun with 3x SRM2 (chain-fired) + 1x MPL

...And of course there's always good ole 3x ML + 4x DHS for some fairly powerful mid-range poptart burst damage (21 damage; 7 DPS)

It's clear to me that you are trying to make the SHC and MLX into something they are not.

You should get to know a mech's strengths before you buy it. Look carefully at the stats & quirks to see what combinations they offer. See how many workable tons you get.

...Then buy if you like the sum total of what you see.

SHC I get roughly 16+ workable tons (dont remember exactly).

MLX I get 7.

They're both jumpy hit-n-run agile mechs. Exactly the playstyle that I like, and I get good results because I play them how they were intended.