54 replies to this topic

[mogs01gt]

Since Heavy IS and Clan dominate, are quirks the answer for 80t's, is scaling it, non-CW weight restrictions put into MM or _______(name something else).

Example:
Visually the 80t mechs look cool. Sadly they all sort of suck except for the Awesome. Victor,,,well you know their issues. Zeus, I like em, but their they suck at long range poke, LRMs suck, their structure quirks are nice if you want to zombie but once you lose armor, you're one alpha or two alphas away from death.

BLAH what is the answer because I want to like the Zeus but the TBR exists!

Mogs

[Gamuray]

I think the issue is more so that there are significant maneuverability differences when transitioning weight classes. There shouldn't be though. Going from 75 tons to 80 tons should be just like going from 70 tons to 75 tons. Just a little difference. But alas.. 80 tonners generally are significantly less mobile than 75 tonners.

[Davers]

Heavy mechs are just too good in general.

[dario03]

The victor needs some armor/structure quirks on the torsos. I ran one for a bit on Tuesday for some throwbacktuesday play and it didn't pretty good in some matches. But in other matches it all went horribly horribly wrong as my side torso melted in 0.2 seconds. You could even just move the leg quirks up to the torsos, not like you can poptart all that much anyways.

[Alistair Winter]

I don't think their being 80 tonnes has anything to do with it. It's more a matter of hardpoint distribution, hardpoint location and hitboxes. If we had an 80 ton Jagermech-clone, I'm sure it would be popular as hell, as long as it wasn't much bigger than a 75 ton mech.

Awesomes... barndoor hitboxes, low hardpoints locations, big engine restrictions.
Victors... lack of hardpoints, low hardpoint locations, poor hardpoint distribution (i.e. can't boat very well)
Zeus... same as Victor, except for the ZEU-9S. Hardpoint location isn't ideal though.

[Summon3r]

mogs01gt, on 30 January 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

Since Heavy IS and Clan dominate, are quirks the answer for 80t's, is scaling it, non-CW weight restrictions put into MM or _______(name something else).

Example:
Visually the 80t mechs look cool. Sadly they all sort of suck except for the Awesome. Victor,,,well you know their issues. Zeus, I like em, but their they suck at long range poke, LRMs suck, their structure quirks are nice if you want to zombie but once you lose armor, you're one alpha or two alphas away from death.

BLAH what is the answer because I want to like the Zeus but the TBR exists!

Mogs

hard to take this serious when you say "except for the Awesome" lol .... that a side assaults in general lack compared to heavies period.

[mogs01gt]

Summon3r, on 30 January 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

hard to take this serious when you say "except for the Awesome" lol .... that a side assaults in general lack compared to heavies period.

So you are saying the Victor or Zeus is better than the Awesome???

[Summon3r]

mogs01gt, on 30 January 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

So you are saying the Victor or Zeus is better than the Awesome???

no did i say that? though there could be an argeument for the Zeus solely on its profile over the barn door

[mogs01gt]

Summon3r, on 30 January 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

no did i say that? though there could be an argeument for the Zeus solely on its profile over the barn door

Ok so you didnt read what I wrote.

Zeus has to reveal just as much as a Awesome but doesnt have the energy quirks to maintain dmg.

[xMintaka]

dario03, on 30 January 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

The victor needs some armor/structure quirks on the torsos. I ran one for a bit on Tuesday for some throwbacktuesday play and it didn't pretty good in some matches. But in other matches it all went horribly horribly wrong as my side torso melted in 0.2 seconds. You could even just move the leg quirks up to the torsos, not like you can poptart all that much anyways.

Leg quirks actually hurt poptarts so moving those up to the torsos would help it in that regard. But with hoverjets it's irrelevant.

[TELEFORCE]

I'd rather see 80 tonners be counted as heavy 'mechs in the matchmaker, despite being assault-class 'mechs in-universe. The difference between 75 and 80-tonners isn't a whole lot.

[Bishop Steiner]

TELEFORCE, on 30 January 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

I'd rather see 80 tonners be counted as heavy 'mechs in the matchmaker, despite being assault-class 'mechs in-universe. The difference between 75 and 80-tonners isn't a whole lot.

Neither is the difference between 80 and 85. Or 85 and 90. See where that leads?

[Khobai]

Quote

Heavy mechs are just too good in general.

heavies are basically apex predators. they have nothing that hunts them. assaults should be their predators.

But assaults have major issues with huge hitboxes and not being able to torso twist to distribute damage, so they end up being less durable than heavies.

And non-ballistic spamming assaults hit the same heat brick wall as heavies. So in a lot of cases assaults dont have more firepower than heavies either.

Plus on top of that is the massive speed disparity between heavies and assaults. Assaults just need buffs in general.

They definitely need unique skill trees for each weight class. All weight classes should not share the same generic skills because not all weight classes are supposed to perform the same role.

Edited by Khobai, 30 January 2016 - 02:21 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

The problem isn't really the lack of quirks. The issue is really how the 80 ton Assaults are designed vs. the rest of the Heavy and Assault Mechs. Look at the Heavy mechs which are being used: Jaeger (high hard points), Marauder (high hard points), Timberwold (high hard points, mostly), Thunderbolts (high hard points, mostly), etc. Look at the Assaults: Battlemaster (high hard points), Stalkers (high hard points), etc. Through the combination of high hard points and extreme quirks, you've got mechs that are simply putting others to shame for no other reason than where the weapon get placed.

[FupDup]

Trauglodyte, on 30 January 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

The problem isn't really the lack of quirks. The issue is really how the 80 ton Assaults are designed vs. the rest of the Heavy and Assault Mechs. Look at the Heavy mechs which are being used: Jaeger (high hard points), Marauder (high hard points), Timberwold (high hard points, mostly), Thunderbolts (high hard points, mostly), etc. Look at the Assaults: Battlemaster (high hard points), Stalkers (high hard points), etc. Through the combination of high hard points and extreme quirks, you've got mechs that are simply putting others to shame for no other reason than where the weapon get placed.

Clearly we need the Canis for an 80 tonner.



Giant arm hitboxes though...

[wanderer]

I've always thought that we should be splitting the 20-100 table a bit more than the L/M/H/A distribution anyway.

20-30 tons, 35-50, 55-65, 70-85, 90-100.

Khobai, on 30 January 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

heavies are basically apex predators. they have nothing that hunts them. assaults should be their predators.

But assaults have major issues with huge hitboxes and not being able to torso twist to distribute damage, so they end up being less durable than heavies.

Assaults also suffer most because thicker armor doesn't mean beans when people can most easily focus their damage on one spot thanks to the aformentioned difficulty with swinging around. The Stalker manages to tank more due to it's shape than it's twisting, and far too many end up with barn-door hitboxes.

Of course, if everything didn't burn the same precise pixel, that armor would go further...

[MauttyKoray]

mogs01gt, on 30 January 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

Since Heavy IS and Clan dominate, are quirks the answer for 80t's, is scaling it, non-CW weight restrictions put into MM or _______(name something else).

Example:
Visually the 80t mechs look cool. Sadly they all sort of suck except for the Awesome. Victor,,,well you know their issues. Zeus, I like em, but their they suck at long range poke, LRMs suck, their structure quirks are nice if you want to zombie but once you lose armor, you're one alpha or two alphas away from death.

BLAH what is the answer because I want to like the Zeus but the TBR exists!

Mogs

A good number of Assaults could do with durability quirks to compensate, giving them a role beyond just 'big fat paper shield that sometimes carry more weaponry".

[627]

the victor was the number 1 mech a while ago, when we had no quirks whatsoever, only global balancing. Sure poptart meta wasn't that cool but in that time, victor was the goto mech, together with the highlander, mechs that are now kinda extinct.

Quirks aren't that of a bad idea, but they should be the little tweaking at the end, not the start of balancing.

[Wattila]

627, on 30 January 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

the victor was the number 1 mech a while ago, when we had no quirks whatsoever, only global balancing. Sure poptart meta wasn't that cool but in that time, victor was the goto mech, together with the highlander, mechs that are now kinda extinct.

Quirks aren't that of a bad idea, but they should be the little tweaking at the end, not the start of balancing.

Victor was good when the mech with the biggest PPFL alpha and jumpjets was the king. No such thing as clan mechs existed either, although a DWF jump sniper would've been a majestic sight. Then the entire meta got nerfed until it hit the pavement and stopped moving.

Quirks are a necessary evil to boost weaker mechs as long as all mechs are expected to perform similarly ton for ton. However, PGI seems to be reluctant to touch IS weapons for some reason, resulting in every mech getting at least moderate weapon quirks.

Edited by Wattila, 30 January 2016 - 03:10 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Through the combination of high hard points and extreme quirks, you've got mechs that are simply putting others to shame for no other reason than where the weapon get placed.

Thats because of the stupid long range on all the lasers though.

high hardpoints would mean less if weapons had shorter ranges in general. I personally think they need to start reeling in the ranges on some of these weapons to encourage more brawling.