33 replies to this topic

[Jody Von Jedi]

The Catapult is in store for some much deserved TLC very soon. In the last Town Hall meeting Russ revealed the plans to rescale many of the 60-65 ton mechs because they are way over sized. He specifically mentioned the Catapult and Quickdraw.There may have been others mentioned too. I don't recall.

So, expect the Catapult to regain some of it's former glory. A smaller target is a good thing.

[IraqiWalker]

DavidStarr, on 05 February 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Thanks for the great write-up, IraqiWalker. I was set on getting A1 after playing the trial one, but now I'm not sure that's the one I should get. I don't remember if the trial A1 has 2 or 4 LRMs, but definitely not 6. And its performance is quite adequate. So maybe I should get the C4 and retain some close quarters brawling potential with 2 lasers?
How does this look like? I'm just starting to wrap my head around the concepts of mech-building, so any critique is welcome.

My pleasure, I actually love that chassis very much, even though I own no catapults anymore (goals for 2016 XP)

Starting with the C4 is not a bad idea at all. I think of the A1 as the "going all in" mech. You're putting all your chips on that one bet, and if it pays off, it will pay off big, but if your roll snake eyes, you lose HARD. the A1 is the embodiment of how binary LRMs in this game can be.

So it's okay if you decide to make it your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th Catapult to pilot.

Three things I should mention about your build:

1- Catapults have excellent hitboxes for XL engines (this means their CT hibox is HUUUUGE, while the STs are tiny), so use an XL engine instead of a STD engine.

2- You will need a Beagle Active Probe in there, drop 1 DHS, and half a ton of LRM ammo for it. BAP will allow you to view your enemy's paperdoll faster, extend your sensor range by an additional 25% (200 meters more), and it will passively shut down any one hostile ECM near you. So you can sustain your fire even if an ECM light comes close to jam your locks (if you are under enemy ECM you can lose your ability to lock on to hostile mechs. You will also disappear from the mini maps of your allies who have no line of sight to you (i.e. looking directly at you)

3- Shift 4 tons of ammo to the legs. Simply to reduce how long your torsos are a danger zone. Because ammo is drawn in the following order: CT->LT->RT->LA->RA->LL->RL->HD. So keeping a lot of ammo in the torsos (which will naturally be targeted by your opponents), means that you will have to go through that much ammo, before you are safe from an ammo explosion in your side torso.


Now I know I've been criticizing your build here, but you actually did a very good job coming up with it, especially considering you're still new. Honestly, the only major problem is the STD engine, instead of a bigger rated XL engine, the rest is minor.

Here is the build with my suggested modifications:

CPLT-C4
Be sure to fire the LRM 10s in groups of 2.

Actually since I'm on the subject:

Spoiler

For LRM mechs using large launchers there are two fire modes to use:

Chain fire, and bombardment. Each has it's own uses:

Chain fire:
1- Suppression: The "Incoming Missiles" alert will always force enemies into cover. You use minimal amounts of ammo, because the enemy mech only knows that missiles are incoming. Could be 5, could be 500, so don't waste a lot of ammo on suppression. Keeping the enemy long range mechs, and spotting mechs suppressed will allow your team to advance safely, and close in for the brawl. It also means they will have fewer guns pointed at your team, which will cost them [red team] losses that can snowball into a full defeat.

2- Harassment: You're just trying to get their attention, or trying to spook them, and you can't guarantee a full salvo will hit

3- Securing kills in the early game: If an enemy mech is 5 damage away from dying, don't waste 40 missiles on it. 10 will do. Maybe 20 to account for the spread. If you REALLY want that kill, then feel free to fire a full salvo

4- Dumb Firing: The enemy team has too much ECM for you to get any locks. That doesn't mean you can't aim at their feet, and launch your LRMs there. Use Chain fire to compensate for lack of accuracy, and guarantee that some of your missiles will hit.

Bombardment: Bombardment only has one purpose, to kill, and cripple in as short a period of time as possible. It's usually an alpha strike (In the case of 4xLRM 10s I might recommend 3 LRM 10s in one shot, and the 4th 0.6 seconds later, or an alpha strike if you can handle the increased heat)

You only fire your alpha strike (bombardment) when you know the shots will land. With direct fire (which you should be doing a lot of to take advantage of the Artemis system you installed), that's easy to do. With indirect fire, you need to have great knowledge of the map, and the slab of terrain your target is on, plus what the terrain is like between you and them.

Is any debris going to obstruct your missiles' flight path? Does your target have nearby great cover? Can they get to it within 5 seconds (usually how long it takes the LRMs to hit their target) ... etc.

Basically, this is when you put the pedal to the metal, and do your damnedest to ruin their day, so make those shots count.

I recommend these two threads to help you with mech building, and hitboxes:

10 Commandments of Mech Building

Hitbox Localization<- Tamerlin keeps updating this thread whenever possible.

Agent1190, on 05 February 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

Damn, IraqiWalker, that should be stickied. Best summary of Catapults I've seen yet.

The best Cat-A1's I've seen in game are LRM5 spam where it can sit at the rear of the engagement and deliver constant annoyance/pain to the enemy target. Much like the Kintaro LRM5 spam. It's really annoying when it happens to me - freaking Mech looks like it's have a seizure I'm twisting so bad while trying to find cover (which is difficult when you can't focus on which way you need to walk). The trade off is having no secondary close-in weapons. If you are looking for similar LRM5 spam with a couple self defense weapons, then consider the C4 so you can bring a couple medium or small lasers along with 4 LRM hardpoints. You can still spam your LRM10's (the extra cooldown quirk will help with the firing delay).

Thanks XD.

I have a few tips for you to deal with the LRM 5 spam:

1- Stop focusing on the screen, navigate from memory, and try to get to nearest cover.

2- Don't look at the screen, look at the minimap at the bottom, it's less disorienting, and will help remind you where you are, and what's around you.

3- Navigate with your legs, not your torso, try to catch as many missiles with your shoulders, rather than your face.

I hope those help you out.

Jody Von Jedi, on 05 February 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

The Catapult is in store for some much deserved TLC very soon. In the last Town Hall meeting Russ revealed the plans to rescale many of the 60-65 ton mechs because they are way over sized. He specifically mentioned the Catapult and Quickdraw.There may have been others mentioned too. I don't recall.

So, expect the Catapult to regain some of it's former glory. A smaller target is a good thing.

I believe there are a couple of mechs ahead of it on the list (Awesome, then Nova, then Kitfox, then Trebuchet if memory serves), but yes, the CPLT will get some love.

[Scyther]

A couple thoughts (in addition to all the excellent ones pointed out above):

-Artemis adds 1 ton per missile launcher. Thus it is generally considered bad for LRM5s (+50% relative tonnage), mediocre for 10s, acceptable on 15's or 20s.
-Artemis only adds reduced lock-on time (handy), 'increased tracking strength' (maybe handy), and only if you have direct LOS to target. That means you can see him, and he can see (and shoot) you.
-BAP does not reduce locking time and will probably only nullify ECM when you are too close for LRM fire anyway.
-TAG (either your own or a teammates) will usually be overall more useful than Artemis or BAP.
-LRM10's are the least tonnage-efficient LRM. LRM5s are 2 tons, 10's are 5 tons. So 5 tons vs. 4 for the same LRM total. Tack Artemis on you have 6 tons to launch 10 LRMs (making one of the worst tons-per-damage effective weapons in game).
-LRM5s of course have tighter spread than 10s. Artemis does not affect LRM spread at all IIRC.

This would be why, even though it's a shame to pay to lose the Artemis, most of the better continuous-fire LRM builds drop it and go with straight LRM5s. (As others have said, don't pay to lose Artemis unless you are sure of your new build)

Last time I built an LRM boat was over a year ago, so if any of this info is outdated I happily appreciate correction by those more knowledgeable than I.

Edited by MadBadger, 05 February 2016 - 02:48 PM.

[DavidStarr]

Thanks for great suggestions and elaborate posts!

IraqiWalker, on 05 February 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

Here is the build with my suggested modifications:

CPLT-C4

I'm genuinely surprised that's how little you had to edit my loadout. I see what you did there, moving one heatsink into the XL engine!

I'll be reading the suggested threads first tomorrow morning when I'm not tired as I am now. But one thing I'd like to mention now is that the only Cat mech I have played yet is the trial A1, and it uses only 2 Artemis-enhanced LRM 15s. I know for sure that's enough because I do 300-400 damage on average (which, I realize, is not great, but it's OK, right?..). Surely, 4 LRM 10s on a quirk-enhanced chassis will be better? And even though I'm firing from cover (i. e. no LoS) 90% of the time, I know Artemis is required because I can't afford the lock acquisition time to be any longer than it already is.
The trial A1 also has 2 SRM 6s that I only use for shotgun-like self-defense and for leeroying in when LRM ammo runs out, and the SRM are pretty adequate for that. Might as well try 6 x SRM build one day!

P. S. Can either of the Catapults deploy at least 2xLRM 15 or LRM 20 in a meaningful way (i. e. not being worse overall than the traditional LRM 5 and LRM 10 loadouts)?

[The Mecha Streisand]

Now you're thinking! 6x SRM-6 is affectionately known as the SplatCat, and it was THE short-range terrorist for a while a couple years ago. Still fearsome, too. Another version was 6x SSRM-2, the StreakCat, which is not nearly so. That was to ward off squirrels (ME). But yeah, 6xSRM6, max armor, lotsa ammo, and the biggest engine that'll allow. That's an alpha strike in the 70s. That's a little more than the meta AS7-S brawler's alpha, and faster, and smaller (and about to be even smaller yet). Fun!

[IraqiWalker]

MadBadger, on 05 February 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

A couple thoughts (in addition to all the excellent ones pointed out above):

-BAP does not reduce locking time and will probably only nullify ECM when you are too close for LRM fire anyway.

I didn't say it reduced lock on time, just that it revealed the paper doll faster (target info gathering), sorry if there was any confusion about what I meant. It allows the LRM boat to judge which targets to prioritize first.

The ECM nullification is intended for when the ECM lights are too close to allow the LRM boat proper support for his team. You don't use the BAP counter so you can kill the lights with your LRMs, you use it to reveal them to your teammates, who'd rush to protect you, and also so you can sustain fire on the main body of the enemy team, while your team is getting rid of the lights (if they stay around you, they jam your lock on ability, even if they are not engaging you.

MadBadger, on 05 February 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

-TAG (either your own or a teammates) will usually be overall more useful than Artemis or BAP.

TAG is useful, but no more useful than Artemis. It has the exact same shortcoming: You have to look at your target.

MadBadger, on 05 February 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

-LRM10's are the least tonnage-efficient LRM. LRM5s are 2 tons, 10's are 5 tons. So 5 tons vs. 4 for the same LRM total. Tack Artemis on you have 6 tons to launch 10 LRMs (making one of the worst tons-per-damage effective weapons in game).
-LRM5s of course have tighter spread than 10s. Artemis does not affect LRM spread at all IIRC.

Artemis tightens the spread of all missiles. Including LRMs.

Artemis is preferred on mechs with fewer launchers (like the C1 that only has 2 launchers), because the tonnage investment is negligible then. If you're running a lot of launchers (4+), Artemis becomes straining. However, it improves guidance, and spread, so it can work well here.

DavidStarr, on 05 February 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Thanks for great suggestions and elaborate posts!


I'm genuinely surprised that's how little you had to edit my loadout. I see what you did there, moving one heatsink into the XL engine!

I'll be reading the suggested threads first tomorrow morning when I'm not tired as I am now. But one thing I'd like to mention now is that the only Cat mech I have played yet is the trial A1, and it uses only 2 Artemis-enhanced LRM 15s. I know for sure that's enough because I do 300-400 damage on average (which, I realize, is not great, but it's OK, right?..). Surely, 4 LRM 10s on a quirk-enhanced chassis will be better? And even though I'm firing from cover (i. e. no LoS) 90% of the time, I know Artemis is required because I can't afford the lock acquisition time to be any longer than it already is.

If I am not mistaken, the faster lock on benefit Artemis confers, is only in effect when you have line of sight. I know it's tighter spread, and better guidance are only active when you have LOS on target, but I'll need to double check this one later.

DavidStarr, on 05 February 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

The trial A1 also has 2 SRM 6s that I only use for shotgun-like self-defense and for leeroying in when LRM ammo runs out, and the SRM are pretty adequate for that. Might as well try 6 x SRM build one day!

P. S. Can either of the Catapults deploy at least 2xLRM 15 or LRM 20 in a meaningful way (i. e. not being worse overall than the traditional LRM 5 and LRM 10 loadouts)?

LRM 5 is the most efficient of the launchers. The others can deploy their builds rather well, but no launchers cycle as fast as the LRM 5, and the bigger ones don't compete with it in fire rate, they compensate with larger salvo sizes which are better at eating through AMS.

The C1 would run any 2 LRM set up very well. If you're using only two launchers, the C1 is the best CPLT for the job (it gives you 4 energy hardpoints too)

[AnimeFreak40K]

MadBadger, on 05 February 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

BAP does not reduce locking time and will probably only nullify ECM when you are too close for LRM fire anyway.

BAP (or Clan Active Probe) will counter 1 Jamming ECM mech within 240 meters, which is not too close to punch someone in the face with LRMs.

IraqiWalker, on 05 February 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

Artemis tightens the spread of all missiles. Including LRMs. Artemis is preferred on mechs with fewer launchers (like the C1 that only has 2 launchers), because the tonnage investment is negligible then. If you're running a lot of launchers (4+), Artemis becomes straining. However, it improves guidance, and spread, so it can work well here. If I am not mistaken, the faster lock on benefit Artemis confers, is only in effect when you have line of sight. I know it's tighter spread, and better guidance are only active when you have LOS on target, but I'll need to double check this one later.

All benefits that Artemis provide only apply when you have LoS. Once you lose LoS, you lose the improved tracking and spread and lock-on time.

Personally, I find that the benefits that Artemis provide (especially that boosted lock-on time) are worthwhile, even on an A-1...especially when dealing with ECM equipped mechs. That is, if you have an enemy ECM mech such that you can actually get a target lock (something you need LoS for anyway), the time it takes to actually get that lock on is noticeably reduced.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Well then, the LRMs-versus-ECM argument brings us back to TAG, which counters ECM when used against it (Artemis, last I checked, though Paul surely has plans to change this, does NOT counter ECM).

Generally speaking, a mid-range Lurmisher is well served by Artemis, especially if LRMs are NOT its primary weapon system. I used to run my EBJ-PRIME with 5x ERML and 2x ALRM-15, and it was really effective. Looking at reviving that, but with ALRM-10s and MPLs. The Artemis system helps a lot there, as I tend to more often have line-of-sight to the target anyhow, and the range is generally more mid- than long-.

Back to the CPLT-A1, though, it's a fairly cowardly mech when fitted with LRMs, because it's got NOTHING else. Likely going to be firing more often without LoS, so Artemis would be less helpful. And with SIX missile hard points, the LRM-5 seems an obvious choice for sustained harassment. The LRM-5 is already pretty tightly grouped, so even if it DID have LoS, Artemis wouldn't be THAT big a buff--the missiles are going to mostly hit torso anyhow, and they're going to come in pretty constantly, bringing their patented screen shake and pilot rattling with them. It SUCKS being on the receiving end of that, I can tell you. Artemis would be an additional six tons and six critical spaces, better used on something else (like an XL engine, more ammo, a couple extra heat sinks, and BAP).

Now, that's just MY two cents. Everyone has an opinion, and ultimately it is up to the OP to decide for himself, through trial and error (and that wonderfully useful Mechwarrior Academy tool), what works best for him.

Never hurts to get forty or so second opinions, though!

[AnimeFreak40K]

While Artemis does not counter ECM, it does counter the time it takes to achieve lock-on. Good for LRM and Streaks. To counter ECM, the tools to do that are BAP/CAP, ECM, TAG, NARC and UAV.

To my knowledge, there is no talk of letting Artemis counter ECM (I would actually be against that to).

With regards to your opinion on the Catapult A1 being 'cowardly', I want to know what you find cowardly about it. If it's because it's a missile boat and thus tends to stay out of the direct fight, then I will tell you that is the pilot, not the mech. I feel that the best LRM boat is one that is close to where the fighting is (300-500 meters from the enemy), sharing armor with teammates. Because that is the play style I have adopted, this makes an A1 borderline insane due to the size of the Catapult vs. mechs of equivalent (or even heavier) tonnage.

Also, there are numerous reasons to run Artemis on LRM5's, one of which is the above-mentioned reduced lock-on time. And there is something to be said about hitting primarily CT (mostly along the lines of reduced damage spread).

As far as making a good build with 6x LRM5 + Artemis, here's mine. Been running it for quite some time and I've found that 10 tons of ammo is about right. I used to have a lot more than that (closer to 14 tons) and I was hard-pressed to use more than half of it before the end of the match.

[DavidStarr]

So I was wrong thinking that Artemis provides the locking time bonus without LoS. Which means, from my personal experience with the A1, that getting Artemis is not worth it for me. So I took the 4 x LRM 10 Cat-C4 loadout and tried upgrading to non-Artemis LRM 15s. Turns out it's doable, and DPS is great, but sadly, you can't equip enough ammo.

That is, unless you're willing to sacrifice either BAP or the jump jet: CAT-4C. Thoughts?
I didn't use any lasers and I had to drop one heat sink, but it still looks like a better A1 damage-wise.

Edited by DavidStarr, 06 February 2016 - 02:17 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

DavidStarr, on 06 February 2016 - 02:10 AM, said:

So I was wrong thinking that Artemis provides the locking time bonus without LoS. Which means, from my personal experience with the A1, that getting Artemis is not worth it for me. So I took the 4 x LRM 10 Cat-C4 loadout and tried upgrading to non-Artemis LRM 15s. Turns out it's doable, and DPS is great, but sadly, you can't equip enough ammo.

That is, unless you're willing to sacrifice either BAP or the jump jet: CAT-4C. Thoughts?
I didn't use any lasers and I had to drop one heat sink, but it still looks like a better A1 damage-wise.

4xLRM 15s is the loadout of an assault LRM boat. It is quite risky to run that on the A1, the damage potential per salvo is high, but you're still new to the class, if you want to run 4xLRM15s on the catapult, buckle up. It's gonna be tough.

Here's my recommendation:

[Bear in mind that you can of course, run whatever you want. I just think that no LRM boat should ever enter the field without backup weapons, except for the A1 since it can't do non-missile weapons]

CPLT-C4

You can swap the MPL, and TAG for 2 MLs, and use the extra ton for either a JJ, or another ton of ammo, or DHS.

Oh, and the XL 250, and the XL 255 actually share the same weight, so use the 255, since it will let you be faster, for the same tonnage, and slot cost.

[DavidStarr]

Nice! Basically the same DPS as my loadout, but with MPLS.
By the way, is chain-firing something that can only be done manually? From the CAT-A1 videos on the previous page it seems to me that it's automatic - i. e. you hold "fire" and the weapons in a group fire in succession rather than in salvos. At least that's what it looks like.

[IraqiWalker]

DavidStarr, on 06 February 2016 - 02:46 AM, said:

Nice! Basically the same DPS as my loadout, but with MPLS.
By the way, is chain-firing something that can only be done manually? From the CAT-A1 videos on the previous page it seems to me that it's automatic - i. e. you hold "fire" and the weapons in a group fire in succession rather than in salvos. At least that's what it looks like.

You basically select a weapon group to be on chain fire, that's the only manual part of the process. The rest is automated.

Once you set a group for chain fire, you just hold the button, and as soon as one weapon finishes firing, another will begin firing automatically, so long as you hold the button down.

[By default, you use the arrow keys to highlight which group you want to switch to chain fire or alpha fire, and use the backspace key -by default-. You'll know it's on chain fire when the groups column of weapons starts blinking in succession down the list of weapons]

[DavidStarr]

IraqiWalker, on 06 February 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

[By default, you use the arrow keys to highlight which group you want to switch to chain fire or alpha fire, and use the backspace key -by default-.

Thanks a lot, missed that bit!