75 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

Match Score isn't absolute - it's relative to other players, you are in one match with. Good player in match with 23 bad players will have higher match score and bad player in one match with 23 good players will have lower match score, then the same player in match with same skill players. Balance - is not when all players at the same Tire have the same Match Scores. It's when all players in entire game have the same Match Scores. Equal conditions for all players - that is the real purpose of having matchmaker.

And again for you. If you are matched up with 23 bad players you will rise UNTIL you matched within a Tier, where every other 23 players are as good as you on average! Then YOU will have the same Match Score as they have. And this is totally fine.

If you wanna have a higher match score what equals to a higher tier - get ******* better to hold that higher tier. All match score will average down on the top, because nobody can hold up a 600+ match score every game against equal players, however against 23 baddies who are just stepped over the hurdle you pretty much can make this score nearly every game. That is plain stupid with the system as it is now! And it will become even more stupid the more people get into the higher tier (2 and 1 - for now).

pyrocomp, on 02 February 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

When the new mech is realised you get extreme drop deck. Like 6 MAL/MAD/WHM on a single team. You get heavier (or a lighter drop with luck) on average for quite a time. But disparity between matches grow and you get more stomps as people level and get used to their new mechs. And those mechs usualy do low damage. Ask people about their experience leveling Black Knight.

Sorry I'm not part of this witch hunt. I purchase mechs by c-bill / don't play shiny new mechs that often. I switch around ever so often between what i have. So in the end I for example don't have any gain nor loss by new mechs filling up more slots than usual. The match score is affected by it on average for all players in this time. So there is no problem! Everybody who play constantly have the same issue to handle with. That is no argument. Just a strawman.

Mawai, on 02 February 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

P.S. Add to the fact that certain weapons like LRMs are very good at padding damage and match score and you have a situation where the LRM boaters or the ones driving OP mechs will be considered the "skilled" players ... LOL.

IF you wanna padding your match score with LRMs, it only helps you until you change the mech and then those who stil are good and have a matchscore to tier ration you do not belong in will eat you alive. So in the end padding will temporaly help, but it does not help to hold you in a tier you do not belong into.

FOTM Mechs only help you getting higher scores against those who don't use it, but they do not necessarily help you against skilled players who also drive them or ar that good on specific chassis (which are not fotm) that you can not stand a toe to them.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 02 February 2016 - 08:53 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

And again for you. If you are matched up with 23 bad players you will rise UNTIL you matched within a Tier, where every other 23 players are as good as you on average! Then YOU will have the same Match Score as they have. And this is totally fine.

If you wanna have a higher match score what equals to a higher tier - get ******* better to hold that higher tier. All match score will average down on the top, because nobody can hold up a 600+ match score every game against equal players, however against 23 baddies who are just stepped over the hurdle you pretty much can make this score nearly every game. That is plain stupid with the system as it is now! And it will become even more stupid the more people get into the higher tier (2 and 1 - for now).

What you trying to say, is that Tier 5 players will end all matches with 50MS, while Tier 1 player will earn 600MS in every match. Do you understand, that it's nonsense?

[Narcissistic Martyr]

kesmai, on 02 February 2016 - 02:52 AM, said:

Lol. You show complete understanding. As a reward you are gifted 5 locusts that you mUst level after the proposed change is made. Exclusively that means

Wait... is there a way I can get in on this? I love me some lolcusts...

[Kuritaclan]

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

What you trying to say, is that Tier 5 players will end all matches with 50MS, while Tier 1 player will earn 600MS in every match. Do you understand, that it's nonsense?

I didn't say this! You just have the brain fart that i do so.

Someone who plays will have higher score up until the point he get equally skilled players - thats the point he get killed more often (as often as the players surrounding him) and it drops down to an extend where he belong. This applies to all.

But in the current system nearly everybody will become the same tier - so in the end you get ever so often just bad players mixed into your team and the other and therefore the skilled players averaging higher matchscores.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 02 February 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[DohItAgain]

There's been quite a few matches where as a light my role was to cap the enemy point to provide distraction for my team.

Those matches usually end with me in a low score because the distraction worked TOO well; and we won. OR with a low score because the distraction didn't work and I wound up capping for a win.

In your PSR system in both of those I'm considered a bad player and should go down tiers.

With your system as it is, I need to put out roughly 600 damage to ever go up, and around 400 to not go down. This just isn't feasible for most battles against any group. And as a losing group player, you're going to score lesser simply because of less backup and you're going to be doubly punished for that.

Edited by DohItAgain, 02 February 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

I didn't say this! You just have the brain fart that i do so.

Someone who plays will have higher score up until the point he get equally skilled players - thats the point he get killed more often (as often as the players surrounding him) and it drops down to an extend where he belong. This applies to all.

Then why do you assume, that different Tiers need different MS thresholds? Different Tiers = different levels of skill. And if different Tiers = different MS Thresholds = different expected MS values, then different skill levels = different MS Thresholds = different expected MS values too. I.e. different skill levels = different expected MS values. I.e. for example you expect, that Tier 5 player will earn 50MS only, while Tier 1 player will earn 600MS, so Tier 5 and Tier 1 should have different MS thresholds - Tier 5 player should advance with >100MS and Tier 1 player - with >700MS. Yeah?

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 February 2016 - 09:09 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

MrMadguy, on 02 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Then why do you assume, that different Tiers need different MS thresholds? Different Tiers = different levels of skill. And if different Tiers = different MS Thresholds = different expected MS values, then different skill levels = different MS Thresholds = different expected MS values too. I.e. different skill levels = different expected MS values.

You have no clue how the system work. And what the behavior of avg match score is in that system. And because of this i stop talking to you.

DohItAgain, on 02 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

There's been quite a few matches where as a light my role was to cap the enemy point to provide distraction for my team.

Those matches usually end with me in a low score because the distraction worked TOO well; and we won. OR with a low score because the distraction didn't work and I wound up capping for a win.

In your PSR system in both of those I'm considered a bad player and should go down tiers.

With your system as it is, I need to put out roughly 600 damage to ever go up, and around 400 to not go down. This just isn't feasible for most battles against any group. And as a losing group player, you're going to score lesser simply because of less backup and you're going to be doubly punished for that.

If you only play lights It is your problem to play the lights only that way. Nobody force you play the way you describe you do. If you like that playstyle play it but don't blame the system. Make a call for better revenue of caping instead - if you like cap warrior online. I'm here to destroy mechs. This is achievable with all weight classes.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 02 February 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[DohItAgain]

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

You have no clue how the system work. And what the behavior of avg match score is in that system. And because of this i stop talking to you.


If you only play lights It is your problem to play the lights only that way. Nobody force you play the way you describe you do. If you like that playstyle play it but don't blame the system. Make a call for better revenue of caping instead - if you like cap warrior online. I'm here to destroy mechs. This is achievable with all weight classes.

I'm here to win, not farm points. If a PSR is based on point farming instead of winning/skill... there's an issue.

Edited by DohItAgain, 02 February 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

DohItAgain, on 02 February 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

I'm here to win, not farm points. If a PSR is based on point farming instead of winning/skill... there's an issue.

As i said. Make a petition that cap warrior online get more benefits. Up until then you should play like 99% of us like to do it. Smashing the mechs of the other side and win that way.

And actually again, the match score is not in its fullness based on "farming damage" - there is a good portion included but also win as other personal influenced actions are counted in. See post #34/#35

Edited by Kuritaclan, 02 February 2016 - 09:37 AM.

[DohItAgain]

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

As i said. Make a petition that cap warrior online get more benefits. Up until then you should play like 99% of us like to do it. Smashing the mechs of the other side and win that way.

OR I could be doing my role as a light so my team mates can smash mechs easier and we can.. again. Win and not point farm.

If I wanted to play Farming Online I'd go grab an Idle Game. Though to be honest you sound like the type of guy that'd avoid killing a mech so you can rack up more damage points.

Edited by DohItAgain, 02 February 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

DohItAgain, on 02 February 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

OR I could be doing my role as a light so my team mates can smash mechs easier and we can.. again. Win and not point farm.

What do you do in a skirmish game where aren't any caps to run to. Humm. I assume most of the time you are a very sad player?

DohItAgain, on 02 February 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

If I wanted to play Farming Online I'd go grab an Idle Game. Though to be honest you sound like the type of guy that'd avoid killing a mech so you can rack up more damage points.

I don't know. But I care when i play light as much about caps as i do about kills or damage. Most time i run around and incite chaos, while I try to survive.

[DohItAgain]

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

What do you do in a skirmish game where aren't any caps to run to. Humm. I assume most of the time you are a very sad player?


I don't know. But I care when i play light as much about caps as i do about kills or damage. Most time i run around and incite chaos, while I try to survive.

In a skirmish game chances are I'm not in a capping distraction role and in a different more-aggressive distraction role. I feel like you're just compensating for yourself now though and being unnecessarily hostile.

[Zoid]

Again, individual games do not matter. If you're trying to redesign PSR so that each individual game gives exactly what it should, you're gonna have a bad time.

What matters is trends and statistics. If you're winning more than you're losing over a long stretch, you're doing something right. If you're winning more than you're losing and are carrying in your wins (high match score), you're doing something very right.

The only real difference (which is a good one) between PSR and ELO is that wins are a major factor, but not the only one. You still get a chance to prove that you were on a team of idiots even though you lost and thus the loss is not your fault. Or you get to prove that your team of idiots only won because you were awesome.

[Mystere]

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

If you only play lights It is your problem to play the lights only that way. Nobody force you play the way you describe you do. If you like that playstyle play it but don't blame the system. Make a call for better revenue of caping instead - if you like cap warrior online. I'm here to destroy mechs. This is achievable with all weight classes.

Ahem! The current system works just fine for lights playing as such on a win.

[Kuritaclan]

DohItAgain, on 02 February 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

In a skirmish game chances are I'm not in a capping distraction role and in a different more-aggressive distraction role. I feel like you're just compensating for yourself now though and being unnecessarily hostile.

Sry for that - it could be the case since MrMadguy was/is exhausting.

But to come back to the point, i don't see that much of a problem getting reasonable high scores with a good played light. If you stay most time out of the fight/never engage the scores stay low. Ok. I'm not a good light pilot, but even I achived somewhat good results with terrible mechs like a Spider SDR-5V. So a good light pilot will have good numbers with them too. I saw Raven 3L making 1k+ damage FS9-A are hot, ACH is hot Oxide is hot and so on. There are many lights to wrack faces with beside their nice bonus of getting points by scouting and flanking and so on.

Mystere, on 02 February 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

Ahem! The current system works just fine for lights playing as such on a win.

You mean the current system works as plain bad for everybody no mather what he plays, since everybody gets over time into the Tier 1 boat, if he is not a total douchebag, and stuck their with a spread of skilled players to unskilled instead of going up against equaly skilled.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 02 February 2016 - 09:50 AM.

[Mystere]

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

You mean the current system works as plain bad for everybody no mather what he plays, since everybody gets over time into the Tier 1 haven if he is not a total douchebag.

I never said it was good, just that it does not punish lights for helping win via non-killing/non-damage means.

Also, I do not believe that everyone will get to tier 1 because for every winner there needs to be a loser. Someone eventually gets left behind.

Edited by Mystere, 02 February 2016 - 09:55 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

Mystere, on 02 February 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Also, I do not believe that everyone will get to tier 1 because for every winner there needs to be a loser. Someone eventually gets left behind.

Yeah no some not - Beginners get left behind to a certain point - And those who are the punshing bags will turn of the game anyway so they will quit and on the shoulders of them even slighly better but stil bad players will climb up. Sure some do not and never will go up. Clearly but they do also don't stay on a level of like Tier 3 - The current system is this way: If you climb you will do it up untill the end or you never will. Or in real life everybody who can climb a hill will in time climb the highest mountain mount everest, however a couple who can not even climb a step will stay in the basement for ever.

Mystere, on 02 February 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

You mean the current system works as plain bad for everybody no mather what he plays, since everybody gets over time into the Tier 1 boat, if he is not a total douchebag, and stuck their with a spread of skilled players to unskilled instead of going up against equaly skilled.

I never said it was good, just that it does not punish lights for helping win via non-killing/non-damage means.

Well that something works fine indicates to me does not be changed, because it is of high quality. Anyway. I think it needs to be changed.

And the most reasonable reason I have: I think that I don't belong into the same skill bracket with someone who train under the week a couple hours with a unit, plays group queue and is for example in the MRBC league. Something is pretty fishy when a old dude like I plays in the same skill corridor as some serious players, who play this game competitive.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 02 February 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[DohItAgain]

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

Sry for that - it could be the case since MrMadguy was/is exhausting.

But to come back to the point, i don't see that much of a problem getting reasonable high scores with a good played light. If you stay most time out of the fight/never engage the scores stay low. Ok. I'm not a good light pilot, but even I achived somewhat good results with terrible mechs like a Spider SDR-5V. So a good light pilot will have good numbers with them too. I saw Raven 3L making 1k+ damage FS9-A are hot, ACH is hot Oxide is hot and so on. There are many lights to wrack faces with beside their nice bonus of getting points by scouting and flanking and so on.


You mean the current system works as plain bad for everybody no mather what he plays, since everybody gets over time into the Tier 1 boat, if he is not a total douchebag, and stuck their with a spread of skilled players to unskilled instead of going up against equaly skilled.

I can get behind that, it's fine then! Anyhow...

I generally play two types of light depending on what we're going into. I have a Huggin, Jenner IIC, and ACH set up to basically be exactly what you're talking about. Running up, getting behind people, shooting off weapons, L/R torsos, and legs. For the most part that's what I'm running if I'm solo queuing. Skirmish or not. If the situation is open for it I'll make a run for cap, but that's often secondary. Those matches I'm hitting 600-1k+ damage easy.

The issue comes in when I'm grouping in a smaller group queue. Often times my role will be something that isn't about dealing damage. Squirreling mechs into our groups, TAG or NARCing them, or bum-rushing to the cap points to force the enemy group to split themselves so the other members of the team get far easier pickings. These matches vary on the enemy team. Sometimes I can get to the point and... we just win because no one ever comes back. Other times I'll be helping my team with TAG/NARCs and not get in a lot of heavy damage myself. Other times I'll poke and prod, but it's that big Heavy mech I let come up behind the enemy that's going to slap his rear-CT for an instant kill. Those games vary too wildly, we can win with me sitting anywhere from 50 to 1200; and in all those cases I'll have done my job.

The PSR as it is... isn't the best, but it isn't awful. It definitely does have a bit too much upward mobility over time, but I feel like people tend to get stuck where they should be. PSR definitely shouldn't be done on a game score only basis though, Zoid is right in that PSR needs to consider your -trends-, not your individual game performance.

[pyrocomp]

Kuritaclan, on 02 February 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

And the most reasonable reason I have: I think that I don't belong into the same skill bracket with someone who train under the week a couple hours with a unit, plays group queue and is for example in the MRBC league. Something is pretty fishy when a old dude like I plays in the same skill corridor as some serious players, who play this game competitive.

You have never ever spent a single day at any sport, have you? I'm not about some ball kicking with few pals, but about sports and with dedication that eventually can bring you to Olympics or other World Tournament? You would've met people that have intuitive grasp of basics and for lower levels that'd be enough to score high without much effort. For higher than that you'll have to train hard disregarding of anything.
So consider yourself luck if you casually get with _some_ compeiteve players. Those players are not the majority. And you also is not that majority. So you basics for PSR changes are even weaker. Get to T1, win upcoming Championship without any training with 3-4 drops twice a week (and that's a lot for a casual) and then make your random buddy to repeat this. And then make the same claim again.

[Kuritaclan]

DohItAgain, on 02 February 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

I generally play two types of light depending on what we're going into. I have a Huggin, Jenner IIC, and ACH set up to basically be exactly what you're talking about. Running up, getting behind people, shooting off weapons, L/R torsos, and legs. For the most part that's what I'm running if I'm solo queuing. Skirmish or not. If the situation is open for it I'll make a run for cap, but that's often secondary. Those matches I'm hitting 600-1k+ damage easy.

The issue comes in when I'm grouping in a smaller group queue. Often times my role will be something that isn't about dealing damage. Squirreling mechs into our groups, TAG or NARCing them, or bum-rushing to the cap points to force the enemy group to split themselves so the other members of the team get far easier pickings. These matches vary on the enemy team. Sometimes I can get to the point and... we just win because no one ever comes back. Other times I'll be helping my team with TAG/NARCs and not get in a lot of heavy damage myself. Other times I'll poke and prod, but it's that big Heavy mech I let come up behind the enemy that's going to slap his rear-CT for an instant kill. Those games vary too wildly, we can win with me sitting anywhere from 50 to 1200; and in all those cases I'll have done my job.

Well for behaving in solo queue different to group queue - there is simple fix - separate rating systems for each queue. Anyway in group queue the outcome is reasonable higher for good groups thand for bads. So in the end an individual rating is not that meaningful.

DohItAgain, on 02 February 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

The PSR as it is... isn't the best, but it isn't awful.

I think we differ in that point.

pyrocomp, on 02 February 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

You have never ever spent a single day at any sport, have you? I'm not about some ball kicking with few pals, but about sports and with dedication that eventually can bring you to Olympics or other World Tournament? You would've met people that have intuitive grasp of basics and for lower levels that'd be enough to score high without much effort. For higher than that you'll have to train hard disregarding of anything.
So consider yourself luck if you casually get with _some_ compeiteve players. Those players are not the majority. And you also is not that majority. So you basics for PSR changes are even weaker. Get to T1, win upcoming Championship without any training with 3-4 drops twice a week (and that's a lot for a casual) and then make your random buddy to repeat this. And then make the same claim again.

I think you don't get the message - i shouldn't be in the same bracket as those people (who train to be the best), but by circumstances (current tier system) i stumble now and ever over them. And many more like me are mostlikely average (what i would concider myself) or in Russ words are mediocre.

So this system as it is does not match me with evenly skilled players. Thats my problem. Sure it does it some times, but most times i'm in a mixed group in between "very much better" players and even worse than me. Not that funny.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 02 February 2016 - 11:14 AM.