32 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Tyler Valentine, on 02 February 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

Managing duration implies that it is still an issue. I don't have to manage anything with an autocannon except where to press the mouse button. Job done.

The biggest thing you have to "manage" with an AC is that it takes up massively more weight than most other options. For example, if you equip an AC/5 and 2 tons of ammo, that's 10 tons. 2 Large Lasers are also 10 tons, for more than triple the damage.

Managing "where to press the mouse button" involves uncertainty and a risk of missing, and the chance of missing increases as range from the target increases. Lasers, meanwhile, have perfect accuracy at all distances. They hit just as consistently at 1000 meters as they hit from only 100 meters.

Tyler Valentine, on 02 February 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

I'm certainly not saying that LASERs are useless but this notion that they are the only viable weapon system is getting a little old. The other weapons in this game perform just as well or better with, admittedly, practice.

I never said they were the only "viable" system, but they are certainly often the most "optimal" because of their high rewards for relatively low opportunity costs. For the lower weight classes in particular, their low tonnage means that trying to use high-tonnage weapons doesn't always end well (e.g. lights with big ballistics have to make extreme sacrifices).

[nehebkau]

I would just rather the let us put on extra armor modules into our critical spaces that take up room and weight (just like heat sinks) to increase the armor in a specific area.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

My biggest problems with structure Quirks are:

First:
That it is a "Quirk". I think the words "Structure" (as in, "construct or arrange according to a plan; give a pattern or organization to:") and "Quirk" (as in "a peculiar behavioral habit:") are somewhat at odds with each other.

Second:
The un-evenhanded and arbitrary application of said buffs.

Third:
The fact that they are used as a method of factional balance.

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 02 February 2016 - 03:50 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Tyler Valentine, on 02 February 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

I agree that we need a dynamic heat scale but how do structure buffs "drive the populus(sic) to load out high pinpoint, optimal alpha builds" ?

Don't they just do that because it is the fastest way to kill another Stompy Robot?

I can't believe anyone would disagree with Tyler here. People have been striving for high single-component damage loadouts since the game's inception. Remember the Penny Arcade guide to MW:O? Yeah, that was waaaayyyyu before quirks.

Structure quirks do not decrease TTK by forcing people to use more effective loadouts. If there was a loadout that would kill the Quirked Mech better, then that loadout would also have already been in use to kill the unquirked Mech already. Structure Quirks do not drive the Meta; damage-output drives the Meta.

You would need to give structure quirks that were Soooo big that you need to land an extra 60-100 damage to destroy a component before DPS weapons became absolute king of the battlefield and displace high alphas.

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 02 February 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

The biggest thing you have to "manage" with an AC is that it takes up massively more weight than most other options. For example, if you equip an AC/5 and 2 tons of ammo, that's 10 tons. 2 Large Lasers are also 10 tons, for more than triple the damage.

You forgot to add the heat sinks to run those 2xLL's.

Besides, they are weapons for different purposes. AC's are dps weapons while lasers are more "hit and run" weapons because of high heat generation. That's why standing in front of a ballistic-heavy Direwolf, King Crab, or Jagermech is an incredibly bad idea

[FupDup]

Wolfways, on 02 February 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

You forgot to add the heat sinks to run those 2xLL's.

Besides, they are weapons for different purposes. AC's are dps weapons while lasers are more "hit and run" weapons because of high heat generation. That's why standing in front of a ballistic-heavy Direwolf, King Crab, or Jagermech is an incredibly bad idea

Those mechs work specifically because they can boat the snot out of ballistics, and some of them also have quirks too.

In terms of heat, the 2 LL in the example can be fired for 29 seconds before overheating if Smurfys isn't lying. That's not too bad.

[Havyek]

IMO if they want to increase TTK they should increase the number of damageable areas from just legs, torsos and arms to more destructible areas, i.e. 6 areas in the CT for Assault (3 for lights) so you need to destroy more area or be more precise with aim (will also put more emphasis on point damage weapons like ballistics and PPCs and less on laser vomit).

[Naduk]

when they first added those massive +20 structure buffs to the atlas it was like heaven
you lose armor, then you start losing components then more components and then you start losing body parts

its what has been missing in this game from the start
i understand that some people like the mech warrior 4 plastic warrior feel of instant kills
but its just not right

i wish they would give every mech a +20 structure buff and then mechs like the atlas even more like +50

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 02 February 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

Those mechs work specifically because they can boat the snot out of ballistics, and some of them also have quirks too.

In terms of heat, the 2 LL in the example can be fired for 29 seconds before overheating if Smurfys isn't lying. That's not too bad.

Yes but the damage output in terms of dps is easily the AC's niche. Even before quirks a JM6-S with stock weapons could kill and Atlas in under 12 seconds with non-stop alphas (AC's only) to the ct.

In a brawler (which most players seem to want) AC's always beat lasers (assuming equal skill), yet for some reason these same players usually use laser meta...

Anyway, imo lasers are worse than other weapons (except LRM's) simply because you need to cram as many DHS into the mech as possible, which really sucks for a BT game as it makes keeping stock weapons difficult or impossible.

[FupDup]

Wolfways, on 02 February 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

Yes but the damage output in terms of dps is easily the AC's niche. Even before quirks a JM6-S with stock weapons could kill and Atlas in under 12 seconds with non-stop alphas (AC's only) to the ct.

In a brawler (which most players seem to want) AC's always beat lasers (assuming equal skill), yet for some reason these same players usually use laser meta...

Anyway, imo lasers are worse than other weapons (except LRM's) simply because you need to cram as many DHS into the mech as possible, which really sucks for a BT game as it makes keeping stock weapons difficult or impossible.

On that note at the bottom, your ACs also need a crapload more ammo than TT standards.

For close range lasers, there are some decent options in the forms of CSPL, CERSL, ISMPL, and sorta the ISSPL. Of course ER Larges and the like aren't as efficient in brawly huggy range, which is 100% fine for the sake of balance (don't get to be omnipotent everywhere).

...However, the fact that high-alpha laser builds can rip big holes in mechs from long to medium range means that those brawlers might already be hurt by the time they get close in, which reduces their intended close-range advantage. This is compounded when several mechs with big alphas form a firing line...

[Aresye]

Tyler Valentine, on 02 February 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Bologna!

It's up to you to break the meta not PGI. Take other weapons and suffer through the learning curve. LASERs are not OP they're just easier.

What are you talking about? It is absolutely, 100% PGI's responsibility to fix the current meta if it's overpowering.

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 02 February 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

On that note at the bottom, your ACs also need a crapload more ammo than TT standards.

Yeah, that's why I've always said pgi need to increase ammo/ton and make DHS trudubs. I'd also prefer if all ROF was slowed and heat cap was lowered though. I just prefer tactics over brawling.

Quote

For close range lasers, there are some decent options in the forms of CSPL, CERSL, ISMPL, and sorta the ISSPL. Of course ER Larges and the like aren't as efficient in brawly huggy range, which is 100% fine for the sake of balance (don't get to be omnipotent everywhere).

...However, the fact that high-alpha laser builds can rip big holes in mechs from long to medium range means that those brawlers might already be hurt by the time they get close in, which reduces their intended close-range advantage. This is compounded when several mechs with big alphas form a firing line...

I never had a problem playing a brawler, but then again I don't expect my whole team to charge forward just because I'm in a short-range mech. Some players don't seem to accept that if they have no long range weapons then they might not get to fight for some of the match and complain in chat about it
I think pgi have done a lot to mitigate long-range fighting by making small maps with plenty of cover. The only map which is even remotely more difficult to get close to the enemy on is Alpine imo.
But then I prefer playing mid to long range builds (300m min), preferably with stock weapons, and trying to keep some distance from the enemy is difficult, at least for me.

[wanderer]

Tyler Valentine, on 02 February 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

They also have duration and produce massive amounts of heat negating much of their weight savings. They are only OP IF they are easier. They are only easier if you don't take the time to practice with other weapon systems.

The perception that they are OP stems from people being too lazy or too concerned with their K/D ratio to take the time to get good at the more difficult to use weapons.

In any case, heat is effectively meaningless up to the point where it causes some kind of penalty to the 'Mech...

...which is to say, 100%+ at this point. Since it's quite viable to burn out a medium's chest in two alphas that won't even cause that now, there's a problem with lasers. But it's the same problem we used to have with AC/PPC, etc, and that is combo-blasting someone to death right on the literal dot. Or in this case, pixel.