33 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Prosperity Park, on 03 February 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

Yeah, I think we should refer to them as "Clan Hero Omnipod Sets" instead of Clan Hero Mechs. Clan Mechs are only sets of Omnipods; they are not distinct Mechs excetpt for CT hardpoints, but even then the CT is nothing but a CT Omnipod.

Making keeping them from pay-to-win even harder, I think it is something that should just be altogether avoided unless they want to make them available for c-bills.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Prosperity Park, on 03 February 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

Yeah, I think we should refer to them as "Clan Hero Omnipod Sets" instead of Clan Hero Mechs. Clan Mechs are only sets of Omnipods; they are not distinct Mechs excetpt for CT hardpoints, but even then the CT is nothing but a CT Omnipod.

I could see something like that.

I'm thinking...

*Purchase a Hero mech in full.

*The Hero chassis is the only chassis that can mount Hero Omnipods.

*The hero can mount other Omnipods like a regular Omnimech.

*For each Omnipod that gets swapped out for a standard (non-Hero omnipod), part of the C-Bill modifier is lost.

Example: A complete Hero Ominmech with full Hero omnipods is the standard 30% c-bill boost. Swap out a torso and arm, maybe the c-bill boost drops to 20%.

That way if a Hero has custom geometry in it's omnipods, it can only stick with the Hero main chassis (CT) and not be used with non-Hero chassis. If other pods are swapped in on the Hero mech, a small C-Bill penalty will be incurred.

It sounds like a bit of a bummer, but it stops C-Bill boosted parts from being attached to other chassis. It also helps stop a Hero from being completely changed from it's Hero load out (by incurring a bonus penalty). Suite you can do it, but the benefit diminishes.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 February 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

Making keeping them from pay-to-win even harder, I think it is something that should just be altogether avoided unless they want to make them available for c-bills.

I'm one of the heretical few who would dare suggest that C-Bill versions of the hero pods/variant should be available. Of course the free versions wouldn't get the fancy paintjob or 30% spacebucks booster, so that wouldn't completely encroach upon the heroes. The hardpoints and quirks, however, would be the same, so that the entire P2W scenario is made impossible.

But PGI will never do that.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

But PGI will never do that.

Despite some of us like myself crusading for such since they first introduced them with the Yen-Lo.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 February 2016 - 11:42 AM.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 February 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

Despite some of us like myself crusading for such since they first introduced them with the Yen-Lo.

Nice things cannot be had.

[MeiSooHaityu]

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

I'm one of the heretical few who would dare suggest that C-Bill versions of the hero pods/variant should be available. Of course the free versions wouldn't get the fancy paintjob or 30% spacebucks booster, so that wouldn't completely encroach upon the heroes. The hardpoints and quirks, however, would be the same, so that the entire P2W scenario is made impossible.

But PGI will never do that.

I get where you're coming from with this and it's not like I hate it, but it just seems a bit unfair.

To buy a Hero Clan mech and be able to build whatever you want loadout wise with no strings attached and still earn a 30% bonus seems unfair when you consider that if a person wants an IS hero, they are stuck with whatever loadout it comes with and has to often sacrifice just to earn that 30%.

I suppose that is the nature of an Omni vs a battlemech anyway, but it just doesn't feel right when dealing with custom Hero Omnipods and a C-Bill booster that can be applied to a mech running whatever hard points the pilot can put together.

Again, it is just my opinion and if it does go your way, I won't be too upset. Still, I wouldn't be able to shake the feeling that it feels wrong.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 03 February 2016 - 12:09 PM.

[FupDup]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 February 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

I get where you're coming from with this and it's not like I hate it, but it just seems a bit unfair.

To buy a Hero Clan mech and be able to build whatever you want loadout wise with no strings attached and still earn a 30% bonus seems unfair when you consider that if a person wants an IS hero, they are stuck with whatever loadout it comes with and has to often sacrifice just to earn that 30%.

I suppose that is the nature of an Omni vs a battlemech anyway, but it just doesn't feel right when dealing with custom Hero Omnipods and a C-Bill booster that can be applied to a mech running whatever hard points the pilot can put together.

Again, it is just my opinion and if it does go your way, I won't be too upset. Still, I wouldn't be able to shake the feeling that it feels wrong.

The point of it all is to try to avoid the problems with making a pay-only mech superior in combat to a freemium mech. When mechs with different in-game performance are locked behind a paywall, this means that they're often going to either be gimped massively to avoid being P2W (e.g. Pretty Baby, Fang, Huginn without superquirks, etc.) or they'll end up being actually P2W (like how the Dragon Slayer and Ember once dominated their classes).

For Omnis vs Battlemechs, locking down pods basically invalidates the point of an Omnimech to begin with. Pod swapping is the reason why they can't swap engines, armor, structure, or other hardwired stuff.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 February 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

To buy a Hero Clan mech and be able to build whatever you want loadout wise with no strings attached and still earn a 30% bonus seems unfair when you consider that if a person wants an IS hero, they are stuck with whatever loadout it comes with and has to often sacrifice just to earn that 30%.

We can kinda do that already with Prime(I) variants...

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

they'll end up being actually P2W (like the Oxide).

FTFY

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 February 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

FTFY

Like the Huginn, the quirkhammer might swing around in the opposite direction in the future...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Like the Huginn, the quirkhammer might swing around in the opposite direction in the future...

Or the nerfhammer hits it like it did the DS and Ember and all the toys they used, well that and Clans.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 February 2016 - 12:21 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

The point of it all is to try to avoid the problems with making a pay-only mech superior in combat to a freemium mech. When mechs with different in-game performance are locked behind a paywall, this means that they're often going to either be gimped massively to avoid being P2W (e.g. Pretty Baby, Fang, Huginn without superquirks, etc.) or they'll end up being actually P2W (like how the Dragon Slayer and Ember once dominated their classes).

For Omnis vs Battlemechs, locking down pods basically invalidates the point of an Omnimech to begin with. Pod swapping is the reason why they can't swap engines, armor, structure, or other hardwired stuff.

I have a feeling you read my response and not my post above it. I'm not suggesting that.

I'm suggesting
*Hero pods only on Hero, not on standard chassis
*Hero can run standard omnipods mixed and matched anyway you want (because you know, omnimech and all)
*For ever standard pod installed, a minor reduction in C-bill bonus (we will say can never drop below 15% booster).

Swap all you want, get full effect by running the Hero as intended, prevent people who buy a hero from getting access to pods C-Bill payers can't.

I get offering C-Bill versions without boosters, and that I'd what I think helps your idea along in my head, but...

It still doesn't change the fact that IS hero's get stiffed by having weird hard point arrangements and quirk adjustments to avoid P2W when s Clan Hero can be made any way it wants without ANY compromise to get that 30% boost.

All I'm saying is, if you want to make your Clan hero unrecognizable with different omnipods, you need to at least give something up in the way of max booster amount.

Really I wish the Hero system had been done differently from the start, but it is too late now :/

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 February 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

*Hero pods only on Hero, not on standard chassis

This is the part PGI seems to be unable to handle, as we saw with the inability to buy extra early adopter variant pods, which is the reason none of us think it will happen, nor is going to stop the pay-to-win aspect since the hero would be able to mount all standard omnipods as well, potentially still allowing for a variant to be more powerful.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 February 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[FupDup]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 February 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

I have a feeling you read my response and not my post above it. I'm not suggesting that.

I'm suggesting
*Hero pods only on Hero, not on standard chassis
*Hero can run standard omnipods mixed and matched anyway you want (because you know, omnimech and all)
*For ever standard pod installed, a minor reduction in C-bill bonus (we will say can never drop below 15% booster).

Swap all you want, get full effect by running the Hero as intended, prevent people who buy a hero from getting access to pods C-Bill payers can't.

I get offering C-Bill versions without boosters, and that I'd what I think helps your idea along in my head, but...

It still doesn't change the fact that IS hero's get stiffed by having weird hard point arrangements and quirk adjustments to avoid P2W when s Clan Hero can be made any way it wants without ANY compromise to get that 30% boost.

All I'm saying is, if you want to make your Clan hero unrecognizable with different omnipods, you need to at least give something up in the way of max booster amount.

Really I wish the Hero system had been done differently from the start, but it is too late now :/

The booster amount isn't really pertinent to the balance of the hero...If at least one hero pod ends up stronger than the corresponding C-Bill pod, that makes the overall hero Omni at least somewhat more powerful than the C-Bill Omni.

For example, let's look at the Summoner M(althus) because PGI has it in the game files but refuses to release it. It's basically a Summoner Prime, but with an added energy in the LT. Given the mech's hardpoint famine and tonnage famine, an extra laser would be an overall improvement in effectiveness. Then our player who bought the Malthus could pop on whatever arms or other pods they liked while just keeping the Malthus left torso, and thus be stronger than C-Bill Summoners.

Even if they had a 0% money booster for doing that, they would still be stronger in combat. Game performance is what matters here, not the easing of money grinding.

Edited by FupDup, 03 February 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 February 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

We can kinda do that already with Prime(I) variants

Kind of, but everyone has access to the prime setup and primes are a regular common loadout. I'm kind of assuming Hero's have more unique custom omnipods that aren't common or readily available.

Either way, with the Invasion models we are practically reproducing the Hero system anyway.

Clan Heroes definitely will have a huge advantage over IS Heroes (which stinks when you pay real money for both) *sigh*.

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

The booster amount isn't really pertinent to the balance of the hero...If at least one hero pod ends up stronger than the corresponding C-Bill pod, that makes the overall hero Omni at least somewhat more powerful than the C-Bill Omni.

Even if they had a 0% money booster for doing that, they would still be stronger in combat. Game performance is what matters here, not the easing of money grinding.

Fair enough.