138 replies to this topic

[John Stryker]

I always have felt that quirks on a mech should be restricted to the weapons that it has stock. Why, for instance, would a GRF-3M manufacturer put improved srm quirks on it if the mech carries erppc, lrm20 and a small laser?

Edited by John Stryker, 05 February 2016 - 12:17 PM.

[Kwea]

CwStrife, on 04 February 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

I've seen so many posts as of late regarding clan being so weak now its sad. I play CW everyday, and one reason the clans are losing so much is the majority of good units are IS now leaving the clan pugs to fend for themselves...

But one of the real problem I've noticed is how many clanners are sitting in the back using LRM builds and then saying IS is OP. If you run a timberwolf loaded to the brim with streak srm6 and ML you can get very close to a 100 point alpha and us IS guys go down very quickly.

Just because your clan mechs can hold 12 lasers doesn't mean you should be putting 12 ML on ur Nova. Just like IS running 6 LL on a stalker is suicide with regards to heat.

Its the amount of horrible builds, the loads of LRMs and the general incompetence regarding your heat efficiency for your builds on the clan side that hurt you. All these mad dogs running LRMs instead of direct fire SRM that would legit help their team out.

The quirks for IS aren't the problem, its just the players on the clan side who love to lob LRMs nonstop and actually hurt their team while most of us IS players know to stick together and focus.

Too much whining instead of learning to play correctly.

Seriously.....no one any good plays with LRM's on a TW build. And 5-6 LL on a Stalker is one of the BEST builds for it. It's not as good as it was, but it's still good.

Clans are weaker in many ways since the IS quirk pass, but the new pass will reduce the ungodly IS general range quirks, and tone down the BJ quirks which make it almost a mini atlas, so things will probably be more balanced.

[quantaca]

OP makes a good point about bad builds on the clan side, i see a lot of timberwolves with 3 ermed and 3 lrm15, not only do they take a bad weapon system that spreads dmg like crazy while mostly depending on others to provide locks, they take away a deadly direct fire mech from the front lines and when they get into direct combat the LRM ears provide huge shoulder hitboxes for the enemy to aim at (even at long ranges).

now about IS quirks ... i can get that some of the ER Large laser ranges are riduculus, but there are some easy and some not so easy fixes for that.
option 1. my favorite and not so easy fix as it requires a lot of data input and some testing, rebalance the weapons (or atleast their ranges) at their basic values, like add 20M to the small (pulse) lasers and 30M to the other ones except the IS ER Large. then bring down (generic) energy range quirks on mechs

option 2. leave everything as is but change the burn time on the IS ER LARGE and return it to 2 lasers for ghost heat

option 3. build in a max (optimal) range for the ER large despite the quirks or add ER LARGE specific negative quirks to mechs that have a larger than 10% generic energy range quirk.

as to the blackjack, yeah that thing got a bit overbuffed with the structure but while hard to kill it isnt nearly as deadly as it was before (the previous nerf to its range and heat already helped a lot esp. in case of the 1x). but i suppose it could stand lose up to 50% of its structure value

[Jack Spade Ward]

Kaeb Odellas, on 04 February 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Streaks aren't exactly useless against heavier targets. A 60 point alpha is still a 60 point alpha, even if it's a bit scattered and only fires every 6 seconds.

A Streak Crow is a hard counter to every light mech in the game (roughly a quarter of the enemy team) and a serious threat to everything else. It presents a 360m radius no mech's land for an entire weight class. The IS does not have an equivalent.

A streak Crow is olny good against lights. I know, i kinda started that build. Theres alot of variations now, but i was waiting on the clans to come out to start that particular build.
If you do remember, the first OP mech was the streak CAT, with 6 SSRM2, and back then, the streaks only hit the center torso, that is why the streaks were nerfed.
As i played with the crow like that, i learned that a 60 point alpha based on streaks arent that efficient, spreads dmg way too much. I even did trials when the Mad Dog came out, to see wich build was better, either the 6 CSSRM6 or the 6 SRM6. As you figured by now, the SRMs won every single trial, altough it was pretty beaten up.
The crow takes 5 CSSRM6, and you can use either a tag, a medium laser or even a medium pulse in exchange for ammo.
After playing that mech to exaustion, heres my findings, the streaks if fired as an alpha, wont do 40 to 50% of the damage, due to bad hit reg, if fired in chain, will do around 90% of the damage, wich is alot better. Theres a very small chance for the alpha do around 90% of the damage... but very small.
All in all, streak crows do excell against lights and cicadas, but will be destroyed with ease against a medium or higher with pin-point weapons.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Spider00x, on 04 February 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

The problem is as its always been clans just have terrible pilots, they allow the power of their mechs to carry them through matches. They already out range IS, out DMG IS, out armor IS and your have the most broken light mech in terms of the super cheeta that can pretty much do anything you need in that weight category. Honestly Clan and IS are not meant to be equal, IS teams in CW have to work together to overcome Clan teams. Seriously, dire wolf and timber wolf pilots dont even attempt to torso twist. Your gonna have to work a little harder to get me to feel sorry for the clans when an organized push of 12 timber wolves rofl stomps almost any IS team.

Not exactly true.
The fact is that clan units used to have the beter teams and pilots. Remember that when the clans came out, and those were made available with cbills, clan mechs were alot more expensive than IS mechs. So, to be in a clan unit, you had to be a veteran already.
Not only that, almost every clan unit, back then, used to have a code of initiation, called trial of position, where one had to fight other proven warriors to be accepted in the clan. That is still being done to new sibkins and cadets.
Before the last nerf on the clans, clan tech was bad already, but what was keeping clans win was in fact the better tactics and pilot skill compared to IS pilots. Most everyone on the clans knew that if you want to go easy mode, you would get the 6 LL stalkers, or the thunderwub. Still, most pilots on the clans were proud knowing that in clan units, they usually train and hone their skills, wich made the diference in CW.
But, after last nerf, it kind made IS on the pedestal, no amount of skill could do anything against the super IS mechs. That is one of the main reasons why alot of the old and veteran playes left the clans! It was simply that bad!

Altough, many of the players that left, hope that after next patch, clans hopefully wont be as bad as they are now, and might return.
In my opinion, the clan heatsink nerf was way too much! Those double heatsinks are nothing more then glorified standart heatsinks! 1.1 heat cap... while clan based weaponry deals alot more heat... i know it was a way to avoid the infamous laser vomit build, but still... instead of nerfing the heatsinks, maybe put the clan ACs working properly? That would make clans players use a reliable weapon intead of the laser vomit builds...Just my opinion

[Jack Spade Ward]

Curccu, on 05 February 2016 - 05:49 AM, said:

Honestly... You talk about how long dude has been playing the game and then actually make claim that streaks are only good against light or lightmedium mechs.... which is true.

and they you say CLAN LRMs WORK WELL! WTH! One of the crappiest weapon systems in this whole game that cannot get even close to laservomit, dakka or brawl in effectiveness and you call it only one weapon system that works well. No wonder clans are losing games.

I didnt said that LRMs work well, i said that it is the only viable weapon that clans have it right now... i know its sad, but it is true...

[Curccu]

Spadejack, on 05 February 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

I didnt said that LRMs work well, i said that it is the only viable weapon that clans have it right now... i know its sad, but it is true...

It's not true, it's not even in same universe with the truth.

[Surn]

Clan is Op and about to become even more Op...so stop whining clanners.

[PraetorGix]

I love how all these intellectuals debate over this like it was the ultimate truth, while 99% of the things they state can be reversed and applied to IS as well. SPECIALLY THE PART ABOUT WHINING TO BE HEARD.
One last bit you may be forgetting, you think it's coincidence that all the big units left clan side at the same moment? Surely that must be because Clans are so very OP...

Edited by PraetorGix, 05 February 2016 - 11:33 PM.

[Luminis]

[Faction I prefer] is underpowered, really. It has been for long while now and [faction I prefer] has only ever won games because those of us who play [faction I prefer] are truly superior, elite pilots. [Faction I dislike] has been EZ mode forever and everybody know that the only reason they've not been stomping everyone is because I am [faction I prefer]'s players are so much better!

Ahem.

Seriously, the notion that there's a considerable difference in the average skill of pilots on either side seems rather baseless (and has been made by both sides, to boot...).

[Zuesacoatl]

PraetorGix, on 05 February 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

I love how all these intellectuals debate over this like it was the ultimate truth, while 99% of the things they state can be reversed and applied to IS as well. SPECIALLY THE PART ABOUT WHINING TO BE HEARD.
One last bit you may be forgetting, you think it's coincidence that all the big units left clan side at the same moment? Surely that must be because Clans are so very OP...

This^^^^^^^^^^^^ so very much this. Comp units go to where they get the most bang for their buck. Where the OP is, you will find the best comp units. Some(ver very few in numbers) comp units will stick with what they love, but the key to be competitive is to be on the side that gives you the best edge possible. Today, that is the IS, that is why, as the OP stated, all the best units are IS atm.

This post is also true in the fact that it was the IS just a few month ago that mewed unendingly about how clans were so OP. It was so horrible, a new thread every five minutes about how the clans were so OP. Everyone cries, this thread was started on a whine because of the upcoming BALANCE pass, not nerf and buff, but BALANCE. Just because you no longer will have a crutch to lean on does not mean you are getting nerfed, it means you must depend on your skills to win.

[Cy Mitchell]

CwStrife, on 04 February 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

I've seen so many posts as of late regarding clan being so weak now its sad. I play CW everyday, and one reason the clans are losing so much is the majority of good units are IS now leaving the clan pugs to fend for themselves...

But one of the real problem I've noticed is how many clanners are sitting in the back using LRM builds and then saying IS is OP. If you run a timberwolf loaded to the brim with streak srm6 and ML you can get very close to a 100 point alpha and us IS guys go down very quickly.

Just because your clan mechs can hold 12 lasers doesn't mean you should be putting 12 ML on ur Nova. Just like IS running 6 LL on a stalker is suicide with regards to heat.

Its the amount of horrible builds, the loads of LRMs and the general incompetence regarding your heat efficiency for your builds on the clan side that hurt you. All these mad dogs running LRMs instead of direct fire SRM that would legit help their team out.

The quirks for IS aren't the problem, its just the players on the clan side who love to lob LRMs nonstop and actually hurt their team while most of us IS players know to stick together and focus.

Too much whining instead of learning to play correctly.

I am not one to complain about balance. However, there is a reason why most of the good teams have switched to IS. It is not solely cyclic or a coincidence. Even the best want to use the best. Due to recent changes, IS assets are the best.

[DivineEvil]

Zuesacoatl, on 06 February 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

This^^^^^^^^^^^^ so very much this. Comp units go to where they get the most bang for their buck. Where the OP is, you will find the best comp units. Some(ver very few in numbers) comp units will stick with what they love, but the key to be competitive is to be on the side that gives you the best edge possible. Today, that is the IS, that is why, as the OP stated, all the best units are IS atm.

So a unit, which prefer easier games and seal-clubbing day after day is now considered "good, competetive teams". Uh... what?

Simply having amassed a large member base or just being active in CW does not makes a unit competetive. Being competetive means looking for stronger opponents in order to challenge youself and improve. Switching sides for easier benefits makes a unit non-competetive by definition. Of course some might chose to switch sides to farm faction rewards or to take relieve from Clan mechs for variability, and in these cases it has nothing to do with balance, and each such unit only might advocate for themselves if they deem it necessary. I do not hold the knowledge to judge people on their motives behind switching sides, and neither do you. You should reconsider your definion of "competetive", otherwise you do not make sense.

If some unit desires to prove me they're competetive, they should appear on the MRBC league table for starters. Then I'll see how "competetive" they really are.

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This post is also true in the fact that it was the IS just a few month ago that mewed unendingly about how clans were so OP. It was so horrible, a new thread every five minutes about how the clans were so OP. Everyone cries, this thread was started on a whine because of the upcoming BALANCE pass, not nerf and buff, but BALANCE. Just because you no longer will have a crutch to lean on does not mean you are getting nerfed, it means you must depend on your skills to win.

Yeah, and the funny thing was, that Clans were actually OP as hell.

People who think, that Range or BJ Structure quirks were fine, should think again; I think majority would agree on that. But this thread is about how Clans whine for their side being unplayable and their weapons being useless. Of course they're useless, because they never actually use them!

Yet they keep theory-crafting about weapons they never use, pointing fingers at their negative features and ignoring the positives, which determine their use. They point at UAC's burst-fire, even though CUACs weight roughly as ISAC's of lower caliber. They ignore Gauss and SRMs, even though both weight less and otherwise completely or almost the same as IS. They point a how their lasers are so hot, even though all of them are better or lighter, which allows for more heatsinks. So in the end it all comes to "inconveniences" - burn durations and burst fire, that are both compensated by actual f****ng skill, developed trough practice. This is nothing compared to what IS had problems with for a year since Clans were introduced.

[Zuesacoatl]

DivineEvil, on 06 February 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

So a unit, which prefer easier games and seal-clubbing day after day is now considered "good, competetive teams". Uh... what?

Simply having amassed a large member base or just being active in CW does not makes a unit competetive. Being competetive means looking for stronger opponents in order to challenge youself and improve. Switching sides for easier benefits makes a unit non-competetive by definition. Of course some might chose to switch sides to farm faction rewards or to take relieve from Clan mechs for variability, and in these cases it has nothing to do with balance, and each such unit only might advocate for themselves if they deem it necessary. I do not hold the knowledge to judge people on their motives behind switching sides, and neither do you. You should reconsider your definion of "competetive", otherwise you do not make sense.

If some unit desires to prove me they're competetive, they should appear on the MRBC league table for starters. Then I'll see how "competetive" they really are.
Yeah, and the funny thing was, that Clans were actually OP as hell.

People who think, that Range or BJ Structure quirks were fine, should think again; I think majority would agree on that. But this thread is about how Clans whine for their side being unplayable and their weapons being useless. Of course they're useless, because they never actually use them!

Yet they keep theory-crafting about weapons they never use, pointing fingers at their negative features and ignoring the positives, which determine their use. They point at UAC's burst-fire, even though CUACs weight roughly as ISAC's of lower caliber. They ignore Gauss and SRMs, even though both weight less and otherwise completely or almost the same as IS. They point a how their lasers are so hot, even though all of them are better or lighter, which allows for more heatsinks. So in the end it all comes to "inconveniences" - burn durations and burst fire, that are both compensated by actual f****ng skill, developed trough practice. This is nothing compared to what IS had problems with for a year since Clans were introduced.

I could honestly care less what you think is competitive. The fact that you keep ignoring is that units that used to be clan are now IS. It does not matter how much of a tryhard your are, and how you think people looking for an advantage is not a competitive team, that is just your ego talking. Massive teams are moving to gain an advantage, teams with great competitive players that could roflstomp most tryhards in these forums, they do it because rhey want great tools. It is like calling a comp sniper not competitive because he switched to a lapua while his competitors stayed with muskets. Gimping yourself is not competitive, it is ignorant. I am happy to be a lowly tier 3, it means I have to deal less with the kind of ignorance you espoused.

[DivineEvil]

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I could honestly care less what you think is competitive.

This is mutual.

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The fact that you keep ignoring is that units that used to be clan are now IS.

I do not ignore it, I just don't see it as a direct prove to anything. Competetive groups like KCom are still playing Clans, because they can care less for balance. Non-competetive units like -MS- are swapping sides all the time, because they're seal-clubbing farmers, who's never participated in any leagues and only good in raw numbers. Again, if a really competetive unit swaps sides, there might be another reason aside from balance, and you has no foundation to claim otherwise.

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It does not matter how much of a tryhard your are, and how you think people looking for an advantage is not a competitive team, that is just your ego talking. Massive teams are moving to gain an advantage, teams with great competitive players that could roflstomp most tryhards in these forums, they do it because rhey want great tools.

Again, being a massive do not equates to competetive. And again, if you need better tools, then you're not really as competetive as you want to believe.

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It is like calling a comp sniper not competitive because he switched to a lapua while his competitors stayed with muskets. Gimping yourself is not competitive, it is ignorant.

Current situation is more in line with deserting to another country because your own lost a battle. And term "competetive" is not applicable to snipers, this is like the most weird analogy I've seen this year.


Gimping yourself is what allows you to argue for imbalance. Someone who's only capable of playing from arguably stronger side has nothing to do in that discussion. That is true ignorance.

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I am happy to be a lowly tier 3, it means I have to deal less with the kind of ignorance you espoused.

And I'm hapy that I'm Tier 1 - it means I don't hold any obligation to agrue about "competetive" players with someone, who barely ever encountered them in the first place.

[Autobot9000]

@OP
If you actually ignore all arguments about game mechanics (read: thats something unavoidable by players, its the "rules" coded into this game) brought up in the balancing section and start to inject the inception, that it's all the players fault... You totally make sense!

[IraqiWalker]

PraetorGix, on 05 February 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

I love how all these intellectuals debate over this like it was the ultimate truth, while 99% of the things they state can be reversed and applied to IS as well. SPECIALLY THE PART ABOUT WHINING TO BE HEARD.
One last bit you may be forgetting, you think it's coincidence that all the big units left clan side at the same moment? Surely that must be because Clans are so very OP...

It wasn't a coincidence. The WHM had just hit, so of course they wanted to take it for a spin. That's why they all jumped to the IS.

Btw, this isn't the first time it's happened. The only reason the clans ever expanded their borders in CW is because the mercs carried them 90% of the time. The the mercs switch back to being IS, and the clans roll up like last week's spreadsheets. This has literally been the cycle of CW since the end of CW 1.

[AnimeFreak40K]

IraqiWalker, on 06 February 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

It wasn't a coincidence. The WHM had just hit, so of course they wanted to take it for a spin. That's why they all jumped to the IS.

Pretty much this. And it wasn't just the 'big' units either. Smaller units that are more traditionally Clan also took a short sting with IS for this exact reason... and I honestly think that more of the exact same thing when the Rifleman and Archer hit.

IraqiWalker, on 06 February 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

Btw, this isn't the first time it's happened. The only reason the clans ever expanded their borders in CW is because the mercs carried them 90% of the time. The the mercs switch back to being IS, and the clans roll up like last week's spreadsheets. This has literally been the cycle of CW since the end of CW 1.

This is completely accurate. I remember watching CW turn into a ghost town shortly after Tukayyid 1 due to player burnout (lots of folks just wanted a break from MWO for a week or so). And I then watched the Inner Sphere punch the Clans so hard in the head they didn't know what happened...and this is because many Merc Units went Inner Sphere (either for something different, they were traditionally IS units or it was just time to go IS).

[Ace Selin]

Spadejack, on 04 February 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

Clans use LRMS now because there isnt any other weapon system that works well! If you had played at least a year, you would see that the meta on the clans were the laser vomit build!

This is so funny.

The New Clan meta is brawlers, be it Dakka, SRM or small lasers. Every map bar Borreal supports this play style & i can tell you it works extremely well for our unit. You need to evolve. Save the LRMs on Borreal with a dedicated narcer.

[Xoxim SC]

DivineEvil, on 05 February 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

The source of that outlook is broken heat management, which allows these repetetive-high-alpha behaviors to exist. Until heat management is fixed, there will not be a weapon balance, and because of that there will not be mech balance either. Its all hinges on PGI's weird passion towards oversized heat capacity.

THIS RIGHT HERE! High alpha builds need to go out the window.