8 replies to this topic

[Grimlox]

I was paying more attention than usual last night given the double XP weekend and it really seemed annoying that while trying to get the last 5K xp I needed to elite a mech I felt like I was getting nowhere because the team was losing.

I could have a similar level of damage contribution (about 600) and on a loss only get about 800-900xp, but on a win it was more like 8,000-9,000xp including x2 first win bonus. Those numbers are both with premium.

There wasn't nearly as significant a disparity between Cbill earnings. Not really the end of the world and I'm not necessarily complaining but when you roll the dice on a solo queue match and have a decent game (600dmg) do you really deserve only 10% of the xp you would have gotten on a win just because the rest of your team didn't pull their weight that match?

This is all amplified by premium time, x2 first win of the day, and double xp weekend but the ratio of xp gain between a win and a loss just seems wildly different despite your own personal contribution.

Not that it's a huge problem but to me it would be a bit less frustrating when I'm on a loss streak and just trying to accomplish something on a mech before the end of the night if they evened out the xp reward between a win and a loss so it was maybe just double or triple the amount on a win rather than 10X.

I look at another game I'm playing right now (Heroes of the Storm) and it's usually not even double the xp gain on a win compared to a loss. I think it's one of the things blizzard does to keep up a sense of progression whether you win or lose and I like that idea.

Just a passing thought after the weekend event, you of course are welcome to agree/disagree/not care.

[AlphaToaster]

I find UAVs help even out the xp a bit so a loss doesn't hurt as much.

Because so much of the xp comes from kill assists, unless the mechs you put your 600 damage on all died, you're not being rewarded for damage done.

Thinking maybe 1 or 2 xp per 1 damage dealt to a surviving mech might help, if that can be attempted.

[Chuck Jager]

Play meta heavies and some meds,assaults and lights and the wins go up. I am not getting into a meta is/is not cool argument, but just pointing out that an individual's ability to carry a match and get wins goes up with the the mech they are playing in solo Q.

You can also farm CW by joining the OP faction and finding their TS server to get invites for teams. It is harder to get invited onto winning teams in group Q.

The biggest issue is that too many players want to farm safe damage, and they are pretty good at it. This is the main contributor to a loss. These slightly skilled players are the swing votes in a win, I do not want to change the reward system to enable pure damage to outweigh playing aggressively for the team.

A team win should always be the highest reward. IF a player has really high stats except for win/losses that should be an indicator of their effectiveness. Unfortunately, from game to game a player with a positive win stat can still get many losses in a row without being in group play.

[Grimlox]

Chuck Jager, on 09 February 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Play meta heavies and some meds,assaults and lights and the wins go up. I am not getting into a meta is/is not cool argument, but just pointing out that an individual's ability to carry a match and get wins goes up with the the mech they are playing in solo Q.

You can also farm CW by joining the OP faction and finding their TS server to get invites for teams. It is harder to get invited onto winning teams in group Q.

The biggest issue is that too many players want to farm safe damage, and they are pretty good at it. This is the main contributor to a loss. These slightly skilled players are the swing votes in a win, I do not want to change the reward system to enable pure damage to outweigh playing aggressively for the team.

A team win should always be the highest reward. IF a player has really high stats except for win/losses that should be an indicator of their effectiveness. Unfortunately, from game to game a player with a positive win stat can still get many losses in a row without being in group play.

I agree, I also don't want to enable pure damage to outweigh playing aggressively for the team, but I think the ratio of 10:1 xp gain could be relaxes a bit before we get to the point where people are encouraged to sit back more and farm easy damage. In fact it could very well be the fear of losing and getting such a pitiful xp reward that does more to encourage people to play safe and hang back rather than push with the team.

The examples I was using from last night were me playing my Gargoyle with a mix of small pulse lasers and ermedium lasers. My playstyle and skirmishing for the most part was the same between matches and my damage was reflected similarly between them. Outcome of the loss was about 900xp and outcome of the win was nearly 9,000 xp.

I think it would be great if the game could detect aggressive play maybe through a bonus towards damage done based on proximity to the target or how early in the match the damage was dealt, but barring something as complex as that it would be nice if say the example above my loss was worth about 2,900xp and the win 7,000xp so it evened out a little more in the short term and the losses didn't feel like such a waste of time. I'm on the same page as you are, but just a suggestion that I don't think would cause any harm or really change anyone's habits. Winning should still be encouraged.

[sycocys]

On losses you simply aren't accruing as many of the bonuses. It's really that simple.

[Chuck Jager]

Grimlox, on 09 February 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

I agree, I also don't want to enable pure damage to outweigh playing aggressively for the team, but I think the ratio of 10:1 xp gain could be relaxes a bit before we get to the point where people are encouraged to sit back more and farm easy damage. In fact it could very well be the fear of losing and getting such a pitiful xp reward that does more to encourage people to play safe and hang back rather than push with the team.

The examples I was using from last night were me playing my Gargoyle with a mix of small pulse lasers and ermedium lasers. My playstyle and skirmishing for the most part was the same between matches and my damage was reflected similarly between them. Outcome of the loss was about 900xp and outcome of the win was nearly 9,000 xp.

I think it would be great if the game could detect aggressive play maybe through a bonus towards damage done based on proximity to the target or how early in the match the damage was dealt, but barring something as complex as that it would be nice if say the example above my loss was worth about 2,900xp and the win 7,000xp so it evened out a little more in the short term and the losses didn't feel like such a waste of time. I'm on the same page as you are, but just a suggestion that I don't think would cause any harm or really change anyone's habits. Winning should still be encouraged.

As soon as I closed my reply. I had a similar thought. Unfortunately people skip over lengthy thought out replies.

It is too hard to figure out and reward complex playstyles and reward them in a way that the players will accept. GH does help address a very complex issue in a way that machinery works (heat curves in a manner until it reaches a point then the curve changes). THe players seem to hate this. Imagine trying to explain how a multi variable algorithm addressing playstyle rewards a player action. If multiple variable were removed folks would game the system.

I have a T2 and T3 account, and I find the T3 account to be the most problematic. In t4 I could carry a high level of games, and in t2 the games have a better balance of better players in better builds. T3 has many folks who have been in the game for years as well as alt t1 accounts getting the same MM rating, and it takes about 3 decent players to know how to push effectively. You can tell within 1 min if your team does not have those players.

I also assume that if you are t4-5 you may not realize the impact of experienced alt accounts not being addressed by MM, and you are still learning how to read the map.

Maybe a 25-50% boost in XP for a loss may be more fair in that it may also make bringing non meta unleveled mechs more valid for the alt farmers. You can not stop them at this time, but if you lower their ttk in lower tiers it may be better for everybody.

OR keep the the exp the same, but actually make the tier bar better reflect a loss in tiers 4.75 and up. Right now I can be in the top 25% for damage and kills in a loss, but still stay equal in psr and get about 200-500xp(ish).

[Xetelian]

I've complained before about how low XP gain was comparing losses and wins or just in general how low it is on losses. The community doesn't rally behind fixing this for some reason.

You have to earn 14250 to basic 1 mech 42750 for 3 to start eliting and 21500 to elite 1 mech and 64500 to elite 3

Then you need 21500 to master 1 and again 64500 to master 3 for you CW drop deck

To finish one mech chassis you need 128,750 XP and 171,750 to finish 3 mechs

171750 is an awful lot for someone to earn on a brand new account to get 3 mechs ready for CW and you have to do it all again to get that 4th mech's master module slot.

This is a significant time sink and really really low loss earnings are terrible for new players

[Narcissistic Martyr]

PGI has a target XP/min they want you to hit. So they split their intended XP rewards between winning and losing in such a way that you might be inclined to convert xp to GXP.

[Grimlox]

Chuck Jager, on 09 February 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

As soon as I closed my reply. I had a similar thought. Unfortunately people skip over lengthy thought out replies.

It is too hard to figure out and reward complex playstyles and reward them in a way that the players will accept. GH does help address a very complex issue in a way that machinery works (heat curves in a manner until it reaches a point then the curve changes). THe players seem to hate this. Imagine trying to explain how a multi variable algorithm addressing playstyle rewards a player action. If multiple variable were removed folks would game the system.

I have a T2 and T3 account, and I find the T3 account to be the most problematic. In t4 I could carry a high level of games, and in t2 the games have a better balance of better players in better builds. T3 has many folks who have been in the game for years as well as alt t1 accounts getting the same MM rating, and it takes about 3 decent players to know how to push effectively. You can tell within 1 min if your team does not have those players.

I also assume that if you are t4-5 you may not realize the impact of experienced alt accounts not being addressed by MM, and you are still learning how to read the map.

Maybe a 25-50% boost in XP for a loss may be more fair in that it may also make bringing non meta unleveled mechs more valid for the alt farmers. You can not stop them at this time, but if you lower their ttk in lower tiers it may be better for everybody.

OR keep the the exp the same, but actually make the tier bar better reflect a loss in tiers 4.75 and up. Right now I can be in the top 25% for damage and kills in a loss, but still stay equal in psr and get about 200-500xp(ish).

I know what you mean about your observations regarding players at tier 3. I'm about 90% into tier 3 so getting close to tier 2 and it does really feel like rolling the dice on what to expect of your team and you can generally get a sense of it on how the players move before the first enemy encounter even begins.

I've got about 100 mechs and it actually discourages me from purchasing more mechs when I think to myself "I still need to finish unlocking my Kit Foxes, Adders, Myst Lynx, Griffins, Ice Ferrets, etc. I probably shouldn't buy any more mechs."

Then I go play my generally least meta type of mechs and go on a few game loss streak and just feel like giving up when I get about 1K xp for almost an hour of my time running a mech I'm usually more likely to lose with because lets face it they aren't all competitive. I like that sense of progression of unlocking more mechs, but not when it feels frustrating and getting so little xp on a few losses in a row definitely can feel that way.