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Convergence Idea To Lesson The Pin-Point-Alpha Problem!(With Pictures!)


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#21 Troutmonkey

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 09:53 PM

View PosttortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

Incorrect, if you flip two stacks of ten coins, the chances are that one will have more heads than the other. CoF is not a solution to the current alpha problem which stems from LASERS, not convergence. No other weapon system gets so much benefit for so little tradeoff thanks to power creep, and that's where the problem is. CoF will NOT solve this problem.

Not if you exercise trigger discipline. Currently fights are won by who can squeeze off the most pin point damage in the shortest amount of time. My proposal is that if you're in a fight and one player shoots some of his weapons, and then some other weapons, he will hit will ALL of them. 0 accuracy pentalties - 100% skill. The other player decides they going to shoot with all of their weapons, but will only hit with some of them, with others hitting adjacent components. Shooting all of your weapons at once should be a tactic of last resort, it shouldn't be the norm.

And stop saying Lasers are the only problem weapon. Currently, yes they are. But why keep making up new mechanics for each weapon every time they become problematic? As I mentioned before, quad gauss and quad PPC were stupid powerful because of convergence, but would have been solved without extra mechanics if CoF was already in the game. The same CoF would have also helped against the SplatCat meta and the BoomJaeger problem.

CoF isn't flipping coins. It's knowing when to play it safe and when to risk it. Normal fire is like a guaranteed but average payout, while an alpha strike can be a double or nothing gamble that doesn't always pay out. Currently alpha striking is the "I win" button in almost every situation

Edited by Troutmonkey, 09 February 2016 - 09:55 PM.


#22 Ratpoison

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 09:59 PM

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

Not if you exercise trigger discipline. Currently fights are won by who can squeeze off the most pin point damage in the shortest amount of time. My proposal is that if you're in a fight and one player shoots some of his weapons, and then some other weapons, he will hit will ALL of them. 0 accuracy pentalties - 100% skill. The other player decides they going to shoot with all of their weapons, but he will only hit with some of them, with others hitting adjacent components. Shooting all of your weapons at once should be a tactic of last resort, it shouldn't be the norm.

And stop saying Lasers are the only problem weapon. Currently, yes they are. But why keep making up new mechanics for each weapon every time they become problematic? As I mentioned before, quad gauss and quad PPC were stupid powerful because of convergence, but would have been solved without extra mechanics if CoF was already in the game.

Chainfire means maintaining face time which means you're a sitting duck for return fire. It's not a viable option. Reducing facetime will always be significantly better than taking the hits. This has ALWAYS been a core part of MechWarrior.

You're the only one making up new mechanics to fix things. Lasers can be brought back into line with considerate quirk reductions(some of which are due next patch), reconsiderations of the heat costs of LL/ML builds, or to go straight for the root problem, increased burn time that disallows you from pumping out huge amounts of damage in under a second. Laser rebalances NEED to be done because the power creep has increased the benefits but not the disadvantages, thus they have been pulled out of line with other weapons.

And even despite that, I will absolutely always accept Ghost Heat before I accept CoF. Luck factors do not fix weapon balance problems, they only cause other issues.

Edited by tortuousGoddess, 09 February 2016 - 10:00 PM.


#23 Kuritaclan

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:01 PM

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

But it isn't intuitive. It's arbitrary and as can be professed by all the laser but and "OMG laser meta" threads going around it's far from a comprehensive solution. CoF mechanics can be found in nearly all FPS, and is easy for new and old players alike.
It's like saying that I should be able to rapid fire 50 cal snipers from the hip with perfect accuracy because anything else would be a nerf to skill.

COF apply to MGs MACHINE GUNS, non of this weapons are mainly used on the Battle Mechs. Your argument, because other FPS Games do it fail in MWO. Since the underlying Tech is totally different. COF is in those games, because MGs have a recoil/cadence interaction, which need to be simulated!

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

Hey, don't look at me. If it's a good enough reason for Battletech to explain away why "Long" range missile can only shoot 1km, then it's a good enough reason for me to use. The main point is that I don't actually need a lore reason for this mechanic. It's a game, it has an issue with part of it's game play, and this solves that. Gameplay trumps lore / realism.

Posted Image LRMs with one Kilometer Range is ok for a ground based Targeting System without extra reconnaissance beside of the mechs targeting system. Also it doesn't hit the point. Since Artillery und other stuff still exists in the Battle Tech Universe. LRMs are essentially multi RPGs with reload function which for 1 tube launcher (Manpad) also only have an effective range of 500 and a bit more Meters. But i don't chase your rabbit any further. Posted Image

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

This isn't a sim. It's an arena based multiplayer shooter with Mechs. It's an arcade game far more than it is a sim.

The last sentence makes it clear. You say it is more an arcade game. However with more depth added to the game continuously it more and more is a sim. As said in post #9 - The game needs development to become a better simulation. But this never will be the case if you sticking plasters all over the bad spots. Posted Image

#24 Troutmonkey

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:05 PM

View PosttortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

Chainfire means maintaining face time which means you're a sitting duck for return fire. It's not a viable option. Reducing facetime will always be significantly better than taking the hits. This has ALWAYS been a core part of MechWarrior.

No one said chain fire. The limit isn't 1 laser. I'd like to see the limit set somewhere around ~20-30 before any CoF kicks in at all.

#25 Troutmonkey

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:13 PM

View PostKuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

COF apply to MGs MACHINE GUNS, non of this weapons are mainly used on the Battle Mechs. Your argument, because other FPS Games do it fail in MWO. Since the underlying Tech is totally different. COF is in those games, because MGs have a recoil/cadence interaction, which need to be simulated!

And lasers require a targeting solution to fire, which needs to be simulated!


View PosttortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

You're the only one making up new mechanics to fix things. Lasers can be brought back into line with considerate quirk reductions(some of which are due next patch), reconsiderations of the heat costs of LL/ML builds, or to go straight for the root problem, increased burn time that disallows you from pumping out huge amounts of damage in under a second. Laser rebalances NEED to be done because the power creep has increased the benefits but not the disadvantages, thus they have been pulled out of line with other weapons.

And even despite that, I will absolutely always accept Ghost Heat before I accept CoF. Luck factors do not fix weapon balance problems, they only cause other issues.


Lasers do need quirk reductions, but it's a separate issue.Lasers were really good before quirks, and were still really good without quirks even with ghost heat. Burn time could be increased but just remember what happened when the CERLL has a 1.25s burn time. Now do that to every laser.

And pleaaaaaaaase stop saying CoF is "luck based" because it's not about luck. It's about skill. Your skill in deciding not to shoot all of your weapons at once. Should you decide to do that, than any shots that miss following that is you're own damned fault for not being skilled enough to maintain weapon discipline.

#26 Kuritaclan

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:18 PM

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

No one said chain fire. The limit isn't 1 laser. I'd like to see the limit set somewhere around ~20-30 before any CoF kicks in at all.

going to laugh in the cellar. This is allready in the game. For Lasers. No WHK Pilot with 4 LPLs or 4 PPCs will shoot them obvisoulsy all togehter. Instead he delay the second pair a half second. So it doesn't be else with your System of target computer failing but adding cof for acctualy emergency shooting both arms. So your ~20-30 are allready in the game! The fire discipline is allready in. And for the matter of ML/MPLs your cof won't do anything unless you spread the fail COF attempt into oblivision.

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

And lasers require a targeting solution to fire, which needs to be simulated!

Lasers do not need a target solution. Lasers are stupid aim where you shoot weapons. As every directed weapon, with no ark. Targeting coputers only assist to make the shots more accurate by calculating in environment variables. Which again have no problems since something like wind speed/vector is constantly tracked or gravity for the purpous of ballistics a constant and so on.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 February 2016 - 10:22 PM.


#27 Troutmonkey

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:27 PM

View PostKuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

going to laugh in the cellar. This is allready in the game. For Lasers. No WHK Pilot with 4 LPLs or 4 PPCs will shoot them obvisoulsy all togehter. Instead he delay the second pair a half second. So it doesn't be else with your System of target computer failing but adding cof for acctualy emergency shooting both arms. So your ~20-30 are allready in the game! The fire discipline is allready in. And for the matter of ML/MPLs your cof won't do anything unless you spread the fail COF attempt into oblivision.


Lasers do not need a target solution. Lasers are stupid aim where you shoot weapons. As every directed weapon, with no ark. Targeting coputers only assist to make the shots more accurate by calculating in environment variables. Which again have no problems since something like wind speed/vector is constantly tracked or gravity for the purpous of ballistics a constant and so on.

Or you could just mix LPL with MLs and bam, you've avoided the ghost heat and still do just as much damage!

As for MPLs not being effected by a CoF because of how close you fire them? The spread is calculated relative to the hit point, so will spread X meters from target point, whether at 100m or 1000m. Shooting MPLs at close range you will still hit with most of them, but will like hit multiple components - which is exactly the outcome that I'm wanting.

And yes, lasers aim exactly where you point them. But how do you know where to point? Something has to calculate the angle to compensate for the weapons placement on the mech, because they don't converge if that all shoot straight forward.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 09 February 2016 - 10:33 PM.


#28 Ratpoison

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:28 PM

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

And pleaaaaaaaase stop saying CoF is "luck based" because it's not about luck. It's about skill. Your skill in deciding not to shoot all of your weapons at once. Should you decide to do that, than any shots that miss following that is you're own damned fault for not being skilled enough to maintain weapon discipline.

That isn't a skill, it's an arbitrary restriction. One that an awful lot of people will be circumventing as much as possible through macros, mind you. The game will still be all about minimizing facetime, even if you arbitrarily penalize it with a needlessly complex added system(and much more so than Ghost Heat). You're trying to force people into leaving themselves vulnerable using an arbitrary penalty, and I'm telling you that it wont work. It doesn't involve skill. Being able to use piloting in combination with aiming to win a fight, while defending against incoming damage is skill. Your system is trying to damage that and it will not work how you want.

#29 Kuritaclan

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:36 PM

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

Or you could just mix LPL with MLs and bam, you've avoided the ghost heat and still do just as much damage!

And it still heats up the mech to an extend where no further second alpha is possible as latest DHS changes done to this kind of usage. And the one alpha as it stands in no problem.It does not kill you and if it is on optimal range it spreads enough see post #18 about movement and interaction with aim.

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

Shooting MPLs at close range you will still hit with most of them, but will like hit multiple components - which is exactly the outcome that I'm wanting.

Look. It is what you want! I do not wanna have it. Period.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 February 2016 - 10:36 PM.


#30 Troutmonkey

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:38 PM

View PosttortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

That isn't a skill, it's an arbitrary restriction. One that an awful lot of people will be circumventing as much as possible through macros, mind you. The game will still be all about minimizing facetime, even if you arbitrarily penalize it with a needlessly complex added system(and much more so than Ghost Heat). You're trying to force people into leaving themselves vulnerable using an arbitrary penalty, and I'm telling you that it wont work. It doesn't involve skill. Being able to use piloting in combination with aiming to win a fight, while defending against incoming damage is skill. Your system is trying to damage that and it will not work how you want.

It's an arbitrary restriction because it's there to encourage more balanced game play. Just as heat is. It can't be "bypassed" by macros because the only way to avoid it is to not shoot everything at once. If they shoot, then wait, and then shoot again it won't make any difference between whether they're using a macro or not as the effect is the same.

In exactly the same way the shooting a 50c full from the hip is penalised in most shooters. Firing in short burst to maintain accuracy is a skill. If you jumped onto Counterstrike and started complaining about recoil being a nerf to skill because it doesn't hit where you aim you'd be laughed off the server.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 09 February 2016 - 10:39 PM.


#31 Ratpoison

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 11:40 PM

View PostTroutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 10:38 PM, said:

In exactly the same way the shooting a 50c full from the hip is penalised in most shooters. Firing in short burst to maintain accuracy is a skill. If you jumped onto Counterstrike and started complaining about recoil being a nerf to skill because it doesn't hit where you aim you'd be laughed off the server.

Have you not noticed that the shooters you are talking about are nearly all foot soldier shooters? Where you're a 200 lb. man with a gun? As opposed to a 100 ton, gyroscopically stabilized war machine?

The recoil and CoF systems are excellent in CounterStrike. The weapon shot pattern system allows the CoF mechanic to be dampened and predictable. More importantly, this is a game where your controls are nimble and precise, allowing you to stutter step to negate the CoF and make a precise killshot against full health opponents on a split second's notice. You can make that kill before the CoF even comes into play. That isn't a luxury that you get in a Battlemech. You have to accurately place damage on the correct components repeatedly to kill an opponent, and in trades, the difference between ST and Arm is often the difference between effective damage and wasted damage. Now imagine how CounterStrike would feel if everyone had 8 separated locations on their body with their own health, that each take 20 times as many hits to kill compared to normal health. Suddenly, that CoF is just a ridiculous diceroll liability.

You need to realize that MWO is unique from nearly every other shooter, and this makes many popular shooting concepts unworkable. CoF is one of those concepts.

#32 Oderint dum Metuant

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 12:06 AM

How many let's remove long range play as an option threads do we need..

#33 Aresye

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 12:55 AM

View PostDV McKenna, on 10 February 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

How many let's remove long range play as an option threads do we need..

The problem with social media. A subject gets brought up, people pick a side, and everybody has to ensure their 2 cents is heard.

The quicker an issue gains momentum, the quicker people are left in the dark about it, but instead of the issue dying out, a trickle effect starts as each of these folks who were left behind get involved with the issue. The problem is there's already tons of discussion, so instead of risking their opinion being lost among pages and pages of other opinions, they create a new topic to ensure their opinion has the most visibility.

#34 Duke Nedo

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 12:57 AM

View PostAresye, on 09 February 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

Yes, let's nerf the few pilots who actually can aim while maneuvering, because the problem in MWO clearly doesn't have anything to do with the majority of players poking from ridges and corners while barely moving (hint: it does).

This wouldn't fix anything we currently have going on in-game. In fact, this would only exacerbate the current problem!

Want to do a brawling push against a firing line? That's already tough as it is, but good freaking luck trying to push a stationary firing line that has perfect convergence while your own team suffers a -80% convergence penalty simply because they're trying to close distance. The enemy team's going to have to find a substitute remark for, "ggclose," because ggclose wouldn't even come close to describing how abysmally one-sided that failure of a match would be.

Do you want campwarrior online? because this is how you get campwarrior online.


This is what I feel too.

Simulation and "realism" is great for single player campaigns but in multiplayer games it's just less fun. Compare the good old Counter-strike 1.6 with Ghost Recon multiplayer... one was great in single player, one was a huge online success. One had bloom, cone of fire and ability to going prone - online play was booooring, while the other allowed pinpoint accuracy while moving and jumping - online play was dynamic because camping was not easier than assaulting, rather the opposite since you were presenting a moving target.

#35 TexAce

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 01:20 AM

View Postcazidin, on 09 February 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

What's with all the convergence threads lately?


It's people having enough of the current ********.
It's people who know that we had convergence back then but it was only removed because they lacked skill to code it well so it works together with hsr and that it was supposed to come back.
It's people who want to this to resemble battletech more and less some arbitary shooter where you have pinpoint accuracy all the frigging time.
It's just people who have been here a long time and want this mess of balance to finally be fixed the right way and not with stupid Paul crap like ghost heat.

Serously how many of you defending the alltime pinpoint alpha meta have anything do to with battletech and Mechwarrior?

I don't care if anyone thinks removing instant pinpoint accuracy is hurting your skills. I know what this game was SUPPOSED to be and what it is becoming.

I'd rather have all the real battletech Mechwarrior fans back who left because of PGI's inability to code stuff right than to deal with folks who have no clue about all that and just want 'to kill robots'.

Edited by TexAce, 10 February 2016 - 01:24 AM.


#36 Troutmonkey

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 01:24 AM

View PostKuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

Well. You do see the problem of srm or lbx implementation. However you think it will be something else with cof for alphas. Harr Harr.

Anyway If i wanna snipe with 2 erll or 4 erll on a 1000m away side torso, because i know it is open i wanna do it when the mech peak out to kill him and not that i get killed because he gauss on me. For example. If i need 2 or 4 times to do it, he returned in the same time 4 bullets into me. And this isn't the way i wanna play the game.

Under the system I'm proposing. CoF won't kick in until the 3rd laser, and won't be that large at 4 lasers but will probably be spread across 2 components for larger mechs and maybe 2-3 if you were shooting a smaller mech. At 6 lasers, your fire is going to be spread across the whole front of a light mech with some shots possibly missing altogether.

In your scenerio you're peaking with 4 ERLL and they're shooting back with 1 gauss. But what if they were shooting back with dual Cgauss and dual CERPPC? You've exposed yourself for about 2 seconds and in that time you've taken 50 damage to a single component and now your side torso is gone. You can't even twist out of that. Does that sound fun or fair?

#37 Oderint dum Metuant

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 02:43 AM

View PostTexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 01:20 AM, said:

It's people having enough of the current ********.
It's people who know that we had convergence back then but it was only removed because they lacked skill to code it well so it works together with hsr and that it was supposed to come back.
It's people who want to this to resemble battletech more and less some arbitary shooter where you have pinpoint accuracy all the frigging time.
It's just people who have been here a long time and want this mess of balance to finally be fixed the right way and not with stupid Paul crap like ghost heat.

Serously how many of you defending the alltime pinpoint alpha meta have anything do to with battletech and Mechwarrior?

I don't care if anyone thinks removing instant pinpoint accuracy is hurting your skills. I know what this game was SUPPOSED to be and what it is becoming.

I'd rather have all the real battletech Mechwarrior fans back who left because of PGI's inability to code stuff right than to deal with folks who have no clue about all that and just want 'to kill robots'.


Totally irrelevant. This is a video game first and foremost, a Battletech/Mechwarrior second.
PGI picked a route, and they are never going to go back and rip out the core mechanics.

They'll stick plenty of band aids in if you whine enough though.

If pinpoint accuracy was such the problem (over the real problem of focused fire which you can't solve) then nobody would ever miss. Nobody would spread damage. Nobody would be below tier 1.

Except as we very well know from the monthly flavor topics, people hate dropping against people better than them...why? because the people better than them, can aim.

The heat scale, and associated penalties for heat are what actually need looking at.

Edited by DV McKenna, 10 February 2016 - 02:47 AM.


#38 Aresye

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 02:50 AM

View PostTexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 01:20 AM, said:

I don't care if anyone thinks removing instant pinpoint accuracy is hurting your skills. I know what this game was SUPPOSED to be and what it is becoming.

Only a very small subset of players thinks that fixing convergence will have any impact on their skills, and the only situation in which that would be an issue would be by utilizing a random CoF mechanic, which I personally oppose, not because I'm afraid of "muh skillz" being impacted, but rather that a random CoF mechanic is a piss poor idea with single shot weapons that have both long cooldowns and (in most cases) heat buildup.

The reason why modern FPS games all utilize a CoF mechanic is because the rate of fire is high enough where the CoF element doesn't have an impact on player vs. player outcome. In fact it's actually necessary to implement any show of skill in the first place, as a CoF requires a player to hold their aim on target longer, whereas without CoF it just becomes a matter of who grazes who first. In other words, the CoF is actually a preventative measure to counter random chance (due to most FPS games having very low health and survivability), and it widens the skill gap.

MWO is not like your generic FPS shooter though. As mentioned earlier, the rate of fire is drastically lower than a normal FPS game, and each missed shot has consequences, such as waiting 3-5 seconds for the weapon to recharge, an associated heat spike, or both. In this case, where the emphasis is on accurate shot placement for each and every shot, a random CoF mechanic actually lowers the skill gap, and does have an impact on player vs. player outcome.

Imagine two cored players at the end of the match, each with only a gauss rifle. Player A is standing still on a hill, lining up a shot on Player B. Player B, knowing he's being targeted, is maneuvering at full speed trying to avoid being hit, while simultaneously lining up his own shot on Player A. Player B (the one maneuvering) lines up a relatively easy shot and fires directly at Player A's cored center torso, however due to the random CoF, the shot misses. Player B is now unable to fire again for about 5 seconds, however during this cooldown time Player A fires his own shot at Player B. Player A accidentally bumps his mouse right before he releases the gauss rifle, causing the projectile to fire at a point when Player A's crosshair was off target, however due to the random CoF, the shot ends up hitting Player B, killing his mech.

What happens when this sort of thing happens in a league match, or when actual money and prizes are on the line for a tournament/event? This isn't like overriding shutdown, where a player can WILLINGLY put their fate into the hands of RNG.

You want fair gameplay? That above example is the complete opposite of fair gameplay. Player A was standing still, presented himself as an easy target, and missed his shot. Player B did not stand still, made himself to be a difficult target, was the first one to fire, shot 100% on target, and would have won the game for his team if it wasn't for a random variable 100% out of his control.

I'm sorry, but that's BS.

With a random CoF type system, those kinds of scenarios WILL happen, and they will happen OFTEN. There's a reason why PGI fixed artillery, and that reason was because players were dying left and right in 100% fresh mechs, simply because RNG decided to drop all 40 points of damage straight on their cockpit hitbox. They fixed that, because that's BS too, and none of this type of BS has any place in a single-life PvP game.





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