150 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

I wouldn't go that far, because one of the major flaws of the IIC is its durability and hitboxes (I feel like they are worse than the IS Jenner).

Would you prefer Clan SRMs with less damage per missile and ~40-50% greater spread...or IS SRMs?

Yes, the IIC has no structure quirks, etc. and that is likely already contributing to the deficiencies...however...making the oxide a bigger monster is not a solution to anything.

[HammerSmythe]

Fester Blatz1980, on 10 February 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

You mean like the Huginn which has sunk back into the pit of rarely used mechs?

I miss my Huginn.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

Would you prefer Clan SRMs with less damage per missile and ~40-50% greater spread...or IS SRMs?

It is only .15 less damage per missile, sure while that is equivalent to around 2.5 points of damage less when talking about 4 SRM4s, but that isn't that wide of a margin.

The spread is a big deal, but it isn't near as bad as you make it out to be: 3.5m vs 4.0m

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 February 2016 - 01:06 PM.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

It is only .15 less damage per missile, sure while that is equivalent to around 2.5 points of damage less when talking about 4 SRM4s, but that isn't that wide of a margin.

The spread is a big deal, but it isn't near as bad as you make it out to be: 3.5m vs 4.0m

2.5 damage is 2.5 damage...as you pointed out in another thread, would you take damage or something else? Damage.

Additionally, where are the spread numbers you are offering coming from? The only numbers I have seen after the SRM buff showed that the IS was roughly ~40% smaller pattern.

[Barantor]

Nerf the Oxide very slightly (5%) and introduce this little badass with the Oxide's old buffs.



http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Javelin

[MikeBend]

Oxide nerf in exchange for Huginn unnerf? Yes, please. But better yet, leave it as is and unnerf Huginn.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

2.5 damage is 2.5 damage...as you pointed out in another thread, would you take damage or something else? Damage.

There is a bit of a difference between those comparisons though. My SRMs are half tonnage, so I could mount an SRM2 and a DHS come out alright. The cooldown and heat gen quirks do help out quite a bit as well on the Oxide, and I wouldn't mind the Jenner IIC getting some heat gen quirks, but one must also keep in mind the JR7-IIC does get the advantage of the Clan XL and JJs, so it getting both heat gen quirks and structure quirks may very well be overkill.

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Additionally, where are the spread numbers you are offering coming from?

Rebalance patch notes, I am unable to check the actual XML values while I'm at work, and smurfy doesn't list the values.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

There is a bit of a difference between those comparisons though. My SRMs are half tonnage, so I could mount an SRM2 and a DHS come out alright. The cooldown and heat gen quirks do help out quite a bit as well on the Oxide, and I wouldn't mind the Jenner IIC getting some heat gen quirks, but one must also keep in mind the JR7-IIC does get the advantage of the Clan XL and JJs, so it getting both heat gen quirks and structure quirks may very well be overkill.

You are sacrificing something to carry the extra launcher on the IIC jenner, and the ammo still weighs the same...not to mention that 4SRM4 on the oxide is significantly more focused than 4SRM4 + SRM2 on the IIC. Additionally, you are burning more ammo per alpha to get that lost damage back as well...so I think the advantage of trying to recover it via a launcher and a DHS is debatable. Maybe if you brought an extra ton of ammo, since you will need it anyway with the massive spray of missiles.

Quote

Rebalance patch notes, I am unable to check the actual XML values while I'm at work, and smurfy doesn't list the values.

I would be curious to see the actual XML values to be honest...the disparity there was significantly greater than what PGI quoted before, and the changes were uniform to both sides, so the disparity should still remain.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

You are sacrificing something to carry the extra launcher on the IIC jenner, and the ammo still weighs the same
...not to mention that 4SRM4 on the oxide is significantly more focused than 4SRM4 + SRM2 on the IIC. Additionally, you are burning more ammo per alpha to get that lost damage back as well...so I think the advantage of trying to recover it via a launcher and a DHS is debatable. Maybe if you brought an extra ton of ammo, since you will need it anyway with the massive spray of missiles.

4iSRM4 + 4.5 tons of ammo (12.5 tons) vs 4cSRM4 + cSRM2 + 5 tons of ammo (9.5 tons)

You won't be as heat efficient or able to repeat the alpha as often because of the Oxide's 15% cooldown and 10% heat gen quirks despite being able to squeeze 3 more DHS in which is where the disparity starts to show. The spread difference isn't that important imo, it is noticeable but I would rather be able to run the heavier alpha more heat efficiently to make them a bit different.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

What are you even talking about? I'm hoping this is sarcasm and I just missed it.

It is sarcasm. But thats what the " top units " have declared. SJR 228 etc... srm's according to them are " useless " even after they got buffed.

Im so glad I dont listen to what anyone has to say about mech builds anymore. Luckily im smart enough and good enough at this silly game I create my own meta, and use builds that I create.

Metamechs is a website for noobs. Kinda like the Prima strategy guides you buy for console games.

Edited by Alwrath, 10 February 2016 - 02:27 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alwrath, on 10 February 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

It is sarcasm. But thats what the " top units " have declared. SJR 228 etc... srm's according to them are " useless " even after they got buffed.

You realize I am in SJR right? And none of us think that SRMs are useless, as most of us have fallen in love with the Oxide and many other SRM mechs.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

The oxides strength lies in combating heavier mechs not engaging lights.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

The issue there is that the Oxide is already better than the JR7-IIC by a wide margin. The IIC has clan weapons, and currently, IS small weapons, and particularly SRMs, are better...basically outright...in this instance. Giving the oxide an advantage in chassis, or even putting it on equal ground, while the IIC is disadvantaged by weapons (that will not get buffed because "clans OP") means that the oxide would literally rule the world for alpha boat brawling lights...and it already does that now.

Clam Smalls absolutely RUIN Spheroid Smalls
As in, it's not even a competition. Not even quirks make them compete (because they're rubbish all the way through).

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

2.5 damage is 2.5 damage...as you pointed out in another thread, would you take damage or something else? Damage.

Additionally, where are the spread numbers you are offering coming from? The only numbers I have seen after the SRM buff showed that the IS was roughly ~40% smaller pattern.

2.5 damage, when you're talking about 48 damage.
That's 5% of the Jenner IIC alpha.


As for spread,

-<Weapon faction="InnerSphere" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM4,ISSRM,ISSRM4" name="SRM4" id="1004">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\SRM4.dds" descTag="@SRM4_desc" nameTag="@SRM4"/>
<WeaponStats volleydelay="0.25" speed="400" lifetime="15.0" duration="0.0" tons="2" maxRange="270.0" longRange="270.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="4" ammoType="SRMAmmo" cooldown="3.0" heat="3" impulse="0.11" minheatpenaltylevel="5" heatpenalty="1.0" heatdamage="0" damage="2.15" numFiring="4" projectileclass="waypointrocket" type="Missile" slots="1" Health="10" spread="3.5" artemisAmmoType="SRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size_per_index="0.025" formation_size="0.005" radius="0.05" maxheight="0" heatPenaltyID="4"/>
<Artemis RestrictedTo="3051"/>

-<Weapon faction="Clan" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM4,ClanSRM,ClanSRM4" name="ClanSRM4" id="1227">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanSRM4.dds" descTag="@ClanSRM4_desc" nameTag="@ClanSRM4"/>
<WeaponStats volleydelay="0.25" speed="400" lifetime="15.0" duration="0.0" tons="1" maxRange="270.0" longRange="270.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="4" ammoType="ClanSRMAmmo" cooldown="3.0" heat="3" impulse="0.11" minheatpenaltylevel="5" heatpenalty="1.0" heatdamage="0" damage="2.0" numFiring="4" projectileclass="waypointrocket" type="Missile" slots="1" Health="10" spread="4.0" artemisAmmoType="ClanSRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size_per_index="0.025" formation_size="0.005" radius="0.05" maxheight="0" heatPenaltyID="7"/>
<Artemis RestrictedTo="3051"/>

A 7M CoF VS an 8M CoF.
12.5%, for half the weight.

I like that trade off.


Oxide gets no spread quirks.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 10 February 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Clam Smalls absolutely RUIN Spheroid Smalls
As in, it's not even a competition. Not even quirks make them compete (because they're rubbish all the way through).

Good thing the IS ML RUINS CERSL, and has *significantly* better range than ERSL or SPL, then huh?

Quote

2.5 damage, when you're talking about 48 damage.
That's 5% of the Jenner IIC alpha.

16*2.15=34.4

which is ~7-8%, and could reasonably be the difference between a dead mech, and a not dead mech, especially over the course of 2-3 alphas.

Quote

As for spread,

-<Weapon faction="InnerSphere" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM4,ISSRM,ISSRM4" name="SRM4" id="1004">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\SRM4.dds" descTag="@SRM4_desc" nameTag="@SRM4"/>
<WeaponStats volleydelay="0.25" speed="400" lifetime="15.0" duration="0.0" tons="2" maxRange="270.0" longRange="270.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="4" ammoType="SRMAmmo" cooldown="3.0" heat="3" impulse="0.11" minheatpenaltylevel="5" heatpenalty="1.0" heatdamage="0" damage="2.15" numFiring="4" projectileclass="waypointrocket" type="Missile" slots="1" Health="10" spread="3.5" artemisAmmoType="SRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size_per_index="0.025" formation_size="0.005" radius="0.05" maxheight="0" heatPenaltyID="4"/>
<Artemis RestrictedTo="3051"/>

-<Weapon faction="Clan" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM4,ClanSRM,ClanSRM4" name="ClanSRM4" id="1227">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanSRM4.dds" descTag="@ClanSRM4_desc" nameTag="@ClanSRM4"/>
<WeaponStats volleydelay="0.25" speed="400" lifetime="15.0" duration="0.0" tons="1" maxRange="270.0" longRange="270.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="4" ammoType="ClanSRMAmmo" cooldown="3.0" heat="3" impulse="0.11" minheatpenaltylevel="5" heatpenalty="1.0" heatdamage="0" damage="2.0" numFiring="4" projectileclass="waypointrocket" type="Missile" slots="1" Health="10" spread="4.0" artemisAmmoType="ClanSRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size_per_index="0.025" formation_size="0.005" radius="0.05" maxheight="0" heatPenaltyID="7"/>
<Artemis RestrictedTo="3051"/>

A 7M CoF VS an 8M CoF.
12.5%, for half the weight.

I like that trade off.


Oxide gets no spread quirks.

Hmm...so...wait a tick, by the time we accommodate for less damage per volley, larger spread, and hotter weapons...especially with ammo weighing the same...that trade off is pretty much evened out.

Especially since the oxide can put SRM16 on a single panel for 34 damage, while any other light mech capable of running SRM16 will spray across the mech, especially considering a 7m dia CoF is 49m^2, while 8m dia CoF is 64m^2.

You are literally talking 30% greater spread. (15/49=~30%)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

Good thing the IS ML RUINS CERSL, and has *significantly* better range than ERSL or SPL, then huh?

Wat? If you ignore it being twice the tonnage, sure.

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

16*2.15=34.4

which is ~7-8%, and could reasonably be the difference between a dead mech, and a not dead mech, especially over the course of 2-3 alphas.

You're nitpicking at this point.

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

especially considering a 7m dia CoF is 49m^2, while 8m dia CoF is 64m^2.

Pretty sure you did your math wrong, area for a circle is Pi * r^2.
So 38.465 m^2 vs 50.24 m^2, which is still around 33% increase in overall area, but again, for half tonnage launchers, sounds like an ok trade off.

That said, the JR7-IIC could use some quirks overall, because it isn't as good as the Oxide despite all the perks it has.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 February 2016 - 03:07 PM.

[pwnface]

Alwrath, on 10 February 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

It is sarcasm. But thats what the " top units " have declared. SJR 228 etc... srm's according to them are " useless " even after they got buffed.

Im so glad I dont listen to what anyone has to say about mech builds anymore. Luckily im smart enough and good enough at this silly game I create my own meta, and use builds that I create.

Metamechs is a website for noobs. Kinda like the Prima strategy guides you buy for console games.

You do realize that metamechs is run by Gman from SJR right? Also, Quicksilver Kalasa plays on SJR's comp team.
Maybe you need to get your **** straight.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

You realize I am in SJR right? And none of us think that SRMs are useless, as most of us have fallen in love with the Oxide and many other SRM mechs.

After some quick internal testing, we've found that oxide typically beats FS9s in 1v1 and the damage output difference is even greater on bigger mechs. I was actually pretty surprised at this personally. I think the oxide is currently stronger than the huggin ever was.

Edited by pwnface, 10 February 2016 - 03:08 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

SJR has actually been doing this test, the result:
Only the ACH stands a chance, and it has to play things just right to pull it off.

The Jenner IIC is also much squishier despite that and it's firepower isn't really as impressive since it also means increased heat. Oxide > JR7-IIC

I wouldn't mind other lights just being better in general, right now between the ACH and Oxide, you don't really need any other light (though FS9-S is still solid).

I do not know why folks keep thinking the ACH is the only mech that can take on the Oxide when the ACH and FS9-A can easily do it. A decent FS A pilot can destroy an Oxide. The effective range of an Oxide against a light mech is 150 meters. Anything further than that and the enemy light can avoid most if not all the volley

The whole "Gonna Play out of his Range" card does not work on a faster mech that only needs 2 shots to kill you, especially when they have JJ's and speed

I would love to know how ya'll "tested" this

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

For the most part it is, it allows the Oxide to survive just well enough that it can often push across short stints of open ground fairly safe and then wreck mechs with its brutal firepower, 4 SRM4 on a light is nothing to scoff at especially if it can close the gap without much trouble.

It has always been on the bubble of becoming good, the great structure quirks just shoved it into a fantastic place.

I do not go on open terrain. A light should never be in the open. All the quirks did was allow the Oxide to be able to take a hit nothing else. Now instead of being consistently 1 shot. its now 2 shot for anyone who knows how to aim. The structure buffs are the ONLY thing that is allowing the mech to actually being competitive now. Remove them and it will be joining the Huginn.

TercieI, on 10 February 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

I want every mech to be workable. Quirks are a good way to achieve that, actually. The Jenner needs structure to compete at all.

Anyway, last post until after Easter...

This guy gets it.

FupDup, on 10 February 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

I'm not sure if you got the point that I was trying to make...

I was trying to say that lights in general are poopy and that the Oxide is one of the few that poses a legit threat to mechs above its own weight (some have a hard time against others of even their own weight...).

Fup gets it as well.

Wattila, on 10 February 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Have to agree with folks suggesting buffing other lights to Oxide/ACH levels. I only dabble in light mechs, but the reality at T1 seems to be that all you can do is harass most of the time, unless you're a pro light pilot. Dangerous to circle people who know how to reverse turn, you'll either die or walk away heavily damaged, only do that as a desperation move.

This is it exactly

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

I wouldn't go that far, because one of the major flaws of the IIC is its durability and hitboxes (I feel like they are worse than the IS Jenner).

Something we can agree on


As someone who does nothing but play Jenners and mainly my oxide since the December 1st patch, it has nothing to do with it being OP. It has EVERYTHING to do with it being able to take a hit as a 35 ton mech and keep on ticking. The Oxide is now a threat to other mechs. The D F and K need the structure buffs that the Oxide got. They can easily still be taken out especially since the last hit box "fix" for the Jenners. The Jenners have been demonized since the firestarters came out.

The problem with Oxides is simple. If you have a player, ME, who plays to the strength's of the mech and minimizes the weakness's they are deadly. The other problem is the higher you go up in tier the less and less GREAT light pilots you see playing lights. So when you get a GREAT light pilot playing a light they will turn the tide of the match.

Me for example, you will not see me at all for the first 3 to 5 minutes of the match. If I take damage early I diminish my teams chance of winning. I bide my time till the fighting really starts and then go to work. A GREAT light pilot is felt not seen.

Those of you in Tier 1 and 2 who have faced me know exactly what a PITA I can be in my Jenners.

The Oxide is taken out the same way as any other Jenner. Aim for the CT, you will either core out his Side torso, or severely damage his CT. Remember also that the OXIDE MUST FACE you to shoot. So when you see that torso turning towards you, either twist or unload on him. Guess what dead Oxide

Live, Learn Adapt!

Edited by Darian DelFord, 10 February 2016 - 03:16 PM.

[Homeskilit]

Gyrok, on 10 February 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

Good thing the IS ML RUINS CERSL

Did you really just compare a Medium Laser to a Small Laser?

[Felicitatem Parco]

I would mind if the Oxide was nerfed..

I would not mind if the other Jenners were buffed to Oxide-Level of competence.

I would be very happy if the Commando and Panther were buffed to "usable" status and even happier if they were buffed to Oxide level.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 10 February 2016 - 03:14 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Prosperity Park, on 10 February 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

I would mind if the Oxide was nerfed..

I would not mind if the other Jenners were buffed to Oxide-Level of competence.

I would be very happy if the Commando and Panther were buffed to "usable" status and even happier if they were buffed to Oxide level.

I wholeheartedly agree that some other light mechs really really need some help.