366 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Koshirou, on 16 February 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

Not only do Clan ER PPCs deal more damage (splash or not), they also do not produce any more heat than the IS version.

The Clan ER PPC is just plain better than the IS ER PPC because it delivers the exact same performance, plus situationally useful bonus damage, in a smaller and lighter package - and there is no possible BS about burn times etc. to wiggle out of this.

Absolutely true. However the elephant in the room is the the IS-PPC is, in fact, a much better weapon than EITHER the C-ERPPC or IS-ERPPC. The only reason to use the IS-ERPPC is massive ERPPC specific quirks. 90m is a tiny min range that can easily be worked around by a competent pilot, considering that PPCs of all types are much better used on small, mobile mechs. (though i would argue for it to be scaling min range dmg as opposed to 0 at 89m and 10 at 90m)

The C-ERPPC needs buffing. The IS-ERPPC needs buffing harder.

edit: Id argue that the IS-ERPPC is better than the C-ERPPC on sufficiently quirked mechs. Take the BJ-3 with 2xERPPC vs the SHC with 2xC-ERPPC (quirk values correct as of todays patch):

BJ-3: 972m optimal range, 1800 m/s, 3.12s cooldown, 10.5 heat.
SHC: 891m optimal range, 1200 m/s, 3.32s cooldown, 15 heat

pretty hard to argue that the Shadow Cats ERPPCs stand up to the BJ-3s, isnt it? Really think that 1 ton, 1 slot and 2.5-5 semi useless splash dmg makes up for the range, heat and velocity?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 February 2016 - 04:54 AM.

[Koshirou]

Not in my opinion. Minimum range kills it. PGI's way of implementing that feature is another facepalm-inducer.

[Widowmaker1981]

Koshirou, on 16 February 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

Not in my opinion. Minimum range kills it. PGI's way of implementing that feature is another facepalm-inducer.

Really? How much time do you spend hugging mechs? If you have PPCs, might i suggest keeping the distance?

There are two builds i play for the BJ-3; 2xPPC+4xSL and 2xERPPC. The PPC build is ENORMOUSLY better than the ERPPC one outside of super specific circumstances on about 2 maps in the game, because it just never, ever overheats.

[Koshirou]

Actually, on the BJ-3 I use the 2xPPC 4xML build as well. On a mobile machine with solid, torso-mounted backup weapons it's alright. But for other Mechs, like the old STK build with quadruple or quintuple PPCs, I felt the minimum range to be a distinct disadvantage - if the enemy was smart enough to take advantage of it.

[Rededevil]

Wow, all this discourse about flamers. Flamers? Really.. I tried them once, and instantly thought - meh -- I can do better with almost anything else.

Flamers have always been just a diversion, a joke, a distraction for me. I can run away from them. I can turn and blast whatever is shooting me with them with a ballistic. They are so inconsequential to me that I don't really care one way or the other what they do with them.

Just my point of view - don't care - got other fish to fry.

Now, on the other hand - I am looking forward to seeing how my Timberwolfs play, and to see what is going to happen to my precious Locusts..

[Koshirou]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 February 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

BJ-3: 972m optimal range, 1800 m/s, 3.12s cooldown, 10.5 heat.
SHC: 891m optimal range, 1200 m/s, 3.32s cooldown, 15 heat

Errr... no. Not even before this day's patch. And not even close. Velocity also appears to be wrong unless basic PPC velocity was upped to 1200.

Correct values would be: 648m optimal range, 1650 m/s after today's patch.
703m optimal range, 1540 m/s at the time of writing.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 February 2016 - 08:45 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Koshirou, on 16 February 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

Exactly. Even though the IS ER PPC is clearly and unequivocally worse on paper (which an earlier poster didn't know apparently), you immediately asserted that because of the quirks, it is actually better.

Quote

The thought that the quirks might merely compensate for the Clan ER PPC's size, mass and splash damage advantages or that the Clan ER PPC may actually still be better in spite of them does not even occur to you, it appears. And that is exactly what I've been talking about. As long as any IS piece of equipment has even one potential advantage over its Clan equivalent, it will be automatically considered superior by players who argue like you do. And since this is obviously preposterous, there's little point in a discussion on this.

Jesus Christ.

Other quirks compensate for size/mass differential in IS vs. Clan weapons. That's WHY IS mechs have those quirks. I said that in my last post.


Comparing the two on paper is pretty straight forward. The Clan version gets a bit of bonus damage where you don't need it that is accounted for in IS weapon quirks (I'll trade that bonus damage for 10% energy weapon heat any day. Size/mass is covered with agi/structure quirks globally, so can be ignored.


From the VERY START of this ERPPC discussion, my argument was that the bonus damage did not make the cERPPC "33% better". Because it doesn't. The value of a weapon is not only in damage done to any target location. Any mech with +(ER)PPC velocity makes that one FAR better instantly (as all ERPPC's are crap because of how slow the projectiles are), and -Heat as a second choice as ERPPC's are terribly hot. Both +velocity and -heat are better outright than the cERPPC splash.

I get that you have this absurd notion that I just cannot handle the idea that any aspect of an IS weapon being superior to a Clan weapon is unacceptable to me, but that's absolutely false and to be honest pretty ******* stupid.

There are aspects of all sorts of weapons that are better than Clan weapons, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I've never once objected to any IS weapon buff, and the only thing I object to right now is IS weapons out-ranging comparable Clan weapons.

I AM NOT SOLELY A CLAN PLAYER, REMEMBER. I play both. Equally.

Lots of IS lasers have shorter burn durations, better heat>damage conversion ratios. IS Autocannons have PPFLD. IS has PPC's - vastly superior weapons to ERPPC's - the ERPPC's extended range is useless at stock velocity, and +50% heat is horrible, while the dead zone is irrelevant if you're not an utter moron and packing nothing but PPC's/idiotically facehugging everyone you fight. Like ERPPC's and cERPPC's, still not very good weapons unless substantially quirked though.

And I think many could use more. I just object to range, because (as I said before) Clan weapons were supposed to have more range at the cost of more heat/burst autocannons/etc. Improve the IS versions in a different way. Make them even better, that's fine.

Seriously, dude. You've got to stop pigeonholing people. Anyways, this is going nowhere, because you're clearly totally uninterested in listening to anything I'm saying and dead set on believing I'm some "filthy clanner" who's fixated on Clan stuff needing to be better in every way, when I'm explicitly said over and over the opposite.

Welcome to the ignore list.

[Nexano]

Ahem... just if Devs read this. Well you nerfed BJ that's had unreasonably high quirks to structure. What about Vidicator? How long he will be Tier 6 mech? He was the one who shoud be buffed, not BJ.

[ulrin]

Hi all
until now, i had flamer on 80percent of my mechs, and i really loved the blinding effect, wich was, on my mind, the more intresting effect of the flamer, shuting down ennemy mechs was a bonus; But now... no more blinding effect, no more locust or urbie laughing when looking a stalker or atlas missing fire because of flamer panic... And, still 90 percent cap...
for now, feel a little bit sad, will see tonight...

Edit: Plz, as they are no more flamers, can you rename the weapon in plasma cutters ? (becauz flamers do FLAMES !!)

Re- edit: same, cant we dream of a flmaers lauching flamable materials, which once an ennemy mech hit by, glue to that mech, and burn a few seconds, in the spirit of hellfire missile ?

so, before u disappear, i've to say FLAMERS, I LOVE U !

Edited by ulrin, 16 February 2016 - 08:20 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

ulrin, on 16 February 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Hi all
until now, i had flamer on 80percent of my mechs, and i really loved the blinding effect, wich was, on my mind, the more intresting effect of the flamer, shuting down ennemy mechs was a bonus; But now... no more blinding effect, no more locust or urbie laughing when looking a stalker or atlas missing fire because of flamer panic... And, still 90 percent cap...
for now, feel a little bit sad, will see tonight...

Honestly, when pure laservomit was all the rage, and most mechwarriors would run their mechs right at the edge of overheating, a Flamer could be situationally useful. But the fact you're more likely to overheat using it than overheat someone you're using it against, the fact you can't light things on fire, the fact it basically does no damage, the fact that it no longer blinds, etc, etc, etc...

It's now officially a useless weapon.

Last night, I had a stock Ember attack me when I was in my Locust (6 SPLs, max engine, etc). I could have run away, but the second I saw they only had 4 flamers and four MGs, I looped right back in, patiently took armor off their legs. When they inevitably overheated (I think I was at about 60% of so, after a minute or so of them hitting me with flamers), I alpha'd their legs, popped them off, and killed them.

Flamers need SOMETHING to make them useful, and hate to say it, but this patch isn't that.

The Rifleman, though? LOOKS AWESOME. Nice job on that, PGI.

[ulrin]

arf, just receive a new message from my urbie "PETITEURBITE" :
He's sad too, cauz the mantis green color isnt glowing in the dark...

[Koshirou]

Wintersdark, on 16 February 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

I get that you have this absurd notion that I just cannot handle the idea that any aspect of an IS weapon being superior to a Clan weapon is unacceptable to me,

What is that sentence even supposed to mean?
I'm relatively certain that it does not mean what I asserted about your obvious preconceptions. And it is painfully clear you remain oblivious to them even now.

[Wildstreak]

Anyone still discussing Flamers here, I direct you to this post I made for obvious reasons.

[Dawnstealer]

Wildstreak, on 16 February 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

Anyone still discussing Flamers here, I direct you to this post I made for obvious reasons.

YOU'RE NOT MY MOM

[Sereglach]

Wildstreak, on 16 February 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

Anyone still discussing Flamers here, I direct you to this post I made for obvious reasons.

Fun thread, half the people are discussing how they're going to wield the exploit that PGI hasn't fixed. I'm going to be checking to make sure it still exists in Testing Grounds after patch; and if it's still in the game, then I'm not going to be loading up a single match. I'll let the trolls go wild with it. I have a feeling it's going to be an ugly patch day.

Also, as for the new flamer visuals, I'm guessing that the "known issue" about particles not rendering must be happening during that video, because they looked like crap. Either that, or PGI was very cheap in their efforts.

[Exard3k]

Patch really boosts ER-PPC for clans because of the TC buff. I get +40% velocity in total along with ~+10% for crit on my Warhawk. Clans can now finally compete in PPC velocity with IS Mechs.

Edited by Exard3k, 16 February 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Dawnstealer, on 16 February 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

YOU'RE NOT MY MOM

I AM YOUR FATHER

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 February 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

BlackhawkSC, on 12 February 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

I really don't like these blanket nerfs to address 1 weapon. And it's not even 1 weapon, it's really 1 weapon combined with certain chassis like the QKDs and STKs.

Another way of looking at it is PGI is partially reverting back the quirks as they were before the last quirk change. That change had PGI move specific weapon quirks to general weapon quirks while at the same time reduced the overall percentage. The reasoning then, iirc, was the allow the players equip a wider range of weapons.

The other side of it, even if they have the data, is the large flux of players moving to the IS side in CW. Even though that is a different thread, and the lopsidedness it caused, it likely was enough to cause more people to voice their concerns about the change in "flavor" between IS and Clan. On some counts they were on the right path (bj structural quirks), so PGI is setting certain outstanding items (GENERAL energy ranges) to a "default" setting without removing the quirks entirely.

That does not mean they will not revisit and up "specific" energy ranges, as they have flipflop back and forth a number of times, and it does changes things up but not to everyone's liking. Until PGI makes some radical changes, imho actual heat scale penalties (2-3 additional levels), arm elevations, even IS-XL engine durability, quirks is all PGI really has to play with.

[Kodyn]

Here's an idea for balance:

Make Clan tech the same price ranges as IS tech, mechs, weapons, everything, then you don't have to feel compelled to make Clans better at all times, since they are no longer paying more for their gear.

Right now, this is the only logical reason I see why no matter how they change this game, clan tech is generally flat-out better: they gotta justify it costing more.

As someone who plays clan and IS fairly equally, I've never not liked clans more, never found my IS mechs better than my clan, and never felt quite right about the power disparity between them, except that, well, my clans cost more, so they should be more powerful.

Change this.

[Tarl Cabot]

Koshirou, on 16 February 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

Not in my opinion. Minimum range kills it (edited IS PPC). PGI's way of implementing that feature is another facepalm-inducer.

It should do reduce damage to the target, and if additional effect is needed, from the MPBT versions splash damage to the firing mech. That kept people from firing at close range unless as a last resort.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 16 February 2016 - 05:31 PM.