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Are Srm + Artemis In Need Of Balancing?


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Poll: Are SRM + Artemis in need of balancing? (29 member(s) have cast votes)

Are SRM + Artemis in need of balancing?

  1. Yes Please! (3 votes [10.34%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.34%

  2. NO! (26 votes [89.66%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 89.66%

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#1 I R O N

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 08:52 AM

I feel is SRM + Artemis is the most over used unbalanced weapon in the game. I remember hearing Russ talking about fixing it so people can not "boat" weapons. I find it completely unbalanced when you can take more damage in missile weapons then you can in Energy or Ballistic weapons.

My suggestion is to Increase the Ghost heat scale on Artemis Weapons by at least 2x. That way if they want to just boat up arms and hug you they will shut down after 2 shots. As it already like that on Most Large bore Ballistic and Energy weapons. Especially with the Limited Choices you get in clan Weapons to begin with. Lets compare the Heat scales of PPCs with SRM 6 + Artemis.

ER PPC 10dmg @ 15 heat 7 tons
PPC 10dmg @ 10 heat 7 tons
C-ER PPC 15dmg @ 15 heat 6 tons

SRM 6 + ARTEMIS 12.90dmg @ 4 heat 4 tons
SRM 6 12.90dmg @ 4 heat 3 tons

As you can see the Firepower to weight ratio is grossly unbalanced. I believe SRM + Artemis should be double the heat scale at the least. It is very frustrating to encounter whole teams boating on the most unbalanced weapons and just blindly rushing in trying to get the kill first. This kills any strategy and Gives way to Blind Rushing. It makes the games too short, the alphas are too high. If a Griffin 2N can have a higher alpha then most Heavy Mechs we have a glaring weapon balance problem. I implore you DEVs to hear me. Change this before the tourney. Because that is all it will be. Whole teams Running Boat SRMs + Artemis. How Boring is that?

I am totally OK with the Balance of Energy and Ballistic weapons. But something has to be done about SRMs and soon. Other wise what is the point of playing at all if every game is merely a literal Dice roll. Either Nerf the Damage of SRMs or the Heat. PLEASE.

Edited by I R O N T Y G R, 13 February 2016 - 04:15 PM.


#2 Firewuff

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 06:30 PM

Srms spread needs to be increased some where between what it was and is now. They have limited range and velocity but spat catting is atill a problem. A lower cycle time would also help

#3 Hawk_eye

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Posted 14 February 2016 - 12:51 AM

Ok, your example in the OP is just ridiculous.

You compare PPCs, the weapons with arguably the _worst_ heat efficiency in MW:O with SRMs

How about we compare medium lasers, a weapon that´s at least in the same range bracket?


Medium Laser: 5 Damage @4 heat and 1 ton
ASRM-6: 12.9 Damage @4 heat and 4 tons
So the SRM does a bit more than 2.5 times the damage than a ML for the same heat.
But hey, the ML only weights 1 ton,so it should probably be:

4 x ML: 20 DMG @16 heat and 4 tons
1 x ASRM-6: 12,9 DMG @ 4 heat and 4 tons
Oh, look at that, suddenly the MLs have the upper hand in damage.
Of course, the SRM doesn´t _really_ do any damage anyway, ´cause there is no ammo for it, so it _really_ should be like:

5.5 x ML: 27.5 DMG @ 22 heat and 5.5 tons
1 x ASRM-6 + 1.5t ammo: 12.9 DMG @4 heat and 5.5 tons

You see?
The MLs deal twice the damage for the same weight, but you pay for that in much more heat. Seems like "benefits and drawbacks" to me.

And don´t forget that, unless your at point blank range, the SRM damage will _still_ be spread over several hit-locations, so that laser damage can be delivered to a single hit-location while your SRM damage is spread out.

Is a Splatcat a dangerous foe at close range?
Of course it is, but so is my LL + 6xML + MPL Grasshopper

Seriously guys, the _ONE_ selling point of missiles is heat efficiency and you want to take that away, so MW:O turns even _more_ into Laser Warrior: Online?

#4 VinJade

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Posted 14 February 2016 - 09:37 AM

also lets not forget that Missiles like all other non-energy weapon comes at the cost of ammunition.

which means that the example should be 1 ton for the Artemis system +3 tons for the weapon +1 ton for ammunition.

You are looking at 5 tons all together which means you are looking at a weapon that matches that of a Large Laser if we are going ton for ton here.

Granted that the LL is not in the same range bracket but they easily match the same weight.

Also one needs to remember that SRMs have a more powerful war head than that of their Long range brothers. each missile does 2 points of damage per missile.

Also those that boat them will run out of ammunition after maybe twenty volleys(depending on how much ammo they carry).

Their range, wight, and the fact that they carry ammunition is what truly balances them out, that and any fast mech can dodge all missile fire.

when I owned my Adder I dodged SRM fire roughly 80% of the time even from faster lights.

#5 Chados

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Posted 14 February 2016 - 11:57 AM

Plus you have to close to suicide range to use any SRMs. That's enough disadvantage.

Just no on this.

Edited by Chados, 14 February 2016 - 11:58 AM.


#6 Pardo Kerensky

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 09:21 AM

how about you get good at the game instead of being a scrub?

#7 Bud Crue

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 09:46 AM

OP,
Can't think of any build where I think this is really a problem. You mention the Splatcat, and sure that build is dangerous if you let it in close without knocking its ears off. But that rarely happens. When I run mine, I consider it nothing short of divine intervention if I manage to get in close with (preferably behind) the enemy without being neutered or killed. Even in that glorious circumstance, I might kill or crit out a single enemy before I am gunned down. Those miraculous matches where I do a lot of damage and get multiple kills in a splat cat have happened only maybe 2-3 times in the year I've been driving the thing. Just doesn't seem like Splatcats or SRM4+As are an OP problem.

#8 I R O N

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 04:57 PM

OMG you people buff the weapons you LIKE.. CONFIRMED

#9 MechWarrior849305

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 02:18 AM

View PostI R O N T Y G R, on 25 February 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

OMG you people buff the weapons you LIKE.. CONFIRMED

There was already one answer for you, shall we repeat? Get actually good in MWO, please. Just don't cry Posted Image

#10 Aeon Veritas

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 02:59 AM

View PostI R O N T Y G R, on 25 February 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

OMG you people I buff want to nerf the weapons you I DON'T LIKE.. CONFIRMED
There, fixed that for you...

Please read again post #3. Points were made that your comparison is flawed.

#11 Gattsus

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:27 AM

OP, of all flavours that you could have picked to use in your post, you had go with salty.... god damnit....

#12 Nightshade24

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 04:08 AM

View PostI R O N T Y G R, on 13 February 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I feel is SRM + Artemis is the most over used unbalanced weapon in the game. I remember hearing Russ talking about fixing it so people can not "boat" weapons. I find it completely unbalanced when you can take more damage in missile weapons then you can in Energy or Ballistic weapons.

My suggestion is to Increase the Ghost heat scale on Artemis Weapons by at least 2x. That way if they want to just boat up arms and hug you they will shut down after 2 shots. As it already like that on Most Large bore Ballistic and Energy weapons. Especially with the Limited Choices you get in clan Weapons to begin with. Lets compare the Heat scales of PPCs with SRM 6 + Artemis.

ER PPC 10dmg @ 15 heat 7 tons
PPC 10dmg @ 10 heat 7 tons
C-ER PPC 15dmg @ 15 heat 6 tons

SRM 6 + ARTEMIS 12.90dmg @ 4 heat 4 tons
SRM 6 12.90dmg @ 4 heat 3 tons

As you can see the Firepower to weight ratio is grossly unbalanced. I believe SRM + Artemis should be double the heat scale at the least. It is very frustrating to encounter whole teams boating on the most unbalanced weapons and just blindly rushing in trying to get the kill first. This kills any strategy and Gives way to Blind Rushing. It makes the games too short, the alphas are too high. If a Griffin 2N can have a higher alpha then most Heavy Mechs we have a glaring weapon balance problem. I implore you DEVs to hear me. Change this before the tourney. Because that is all it will be. Whole teams Running Boat SRMs + Artemis. How Boring is that?

I am totally OK with the Balance of Energy and Ballistic weapons. But something has to be done about SRMs and soon. Other wise what is the point of playing at all if every game is merely a literal Dice roll. Either Nerf the Damage of SRMs or the Heat. PLEASE.


You are aware the whole point of a PPC- let alone an ER PPC. is sacrificing heat for range yes? Ever thought about that? The fact that TWO medium lasers at 2 tons do the same damage as a 7 ton PPC at way less heat?
If you compare a sniper weapon to a brawler weapon sure- cry everything is UP.
AC 20 is OP because it does more damage than Gauss rifle.
ER large laser is underpowered as it has more heat than large laser.
etc...

Please compare the SRM 6 to another weapon used for brawling please. (also yo uforgot to mention in your math that you need ammo and a lot of ammo to run a missile weapon, their biggest disadvantage for a missile is the highest ammo to damage ratios out there to the point that people do not consider them very valid on lighter mechs unless 100% dedicated.

For eg...

Medium laser = 5 damage, 4 heat, 1 ton. (DPS: 1.28, DPH 1.25, DPS/T: 1.28)
Medium pulse laser = 6 damage, 4 heat, 2 ton (DPS 1.67, DPH: 1.50, DPS/T: 0.83)
AC 10 = 10 damage, 3 heat, 12 ton (DPS: 4.00, DPH: 3.33, DPS/T: 0.33)
AC 20 = 20 damage, 6 heat, 14 ton (DPS: 5.00, DPH 3.33, DPS/T: 0.36)
LBX 10 = 10 x 1 damage, 2 heat, 11 tons (DPS: 4.00, DPH: 5.00, DPS/T: 0.36)

SRM 6 = 6 x 2 damage, 4 heat, 3 tons (DPS: 3.23, DPH: 3.23, DPS/T: 1.03)

now let us see here...
SRM 6 is 2 tons heavier than a medium laser and does nearly 1 and a quarter more damage. If we got 3 medium lasers (equal tonage) we got 15 damage [lasers] vs 12 damage SRM... not only that but no travel time, pinpoint, etc... however we get it at a much higher heat BUT no ammo!

The ballistics are heavier, much heavier. however they are as cold even though they do much higher pinpoint damage and they have a SUPERIOR DPS overall and equal to better Damage per heat. The DPS/T is a bit bad due to the nature of ballistics (bonus: they are colder and have better ammo per ton. Pinpoint too).
So far when compairing SRM to another brawler weapon the SRM now looks underpowered and not OP...
It spreads, it's relatively hot, it chugs ammo, etc... The reason it's useful is it's DPS/T, the DPS for it's tons. It does good damage for the weapons weight however it has many draw backs. it's why in BT you rarely see a mech that is just missiles, let alone missiles and ballistics. Most missile mechs lean heavily on energy weapons, ie Catapult, Mad dog, Stalker, Awesome, etc.

You see a 6 SRM 6 Catapult or mad dog run around the corner, damn, tough luck for you. however having a twin AC 20 jagermech is also harsh. Or a 7 medium pulse laser thunderbolt/ black knight/ what ever stroll around the corner. You got a higher chance surviving against the catapult/ mad dog due to the fact they got a HARD max range of 270 and have travel time and spread... they can't easily deploy say 40 damage like a jagermech or 42 damage like a thunderbolt into 1 precise area instantly or deal slightly less damage beyound 270 meters.

Another problem with yoru comparison is you are complaining about SRM's with artemis but using an un-artemis SRM to comapre it with the other weapons... you are missing the 1 slot and 1 ton that you got for having it... making the whole weight situation look proportional...

#13 I R O N

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:50 AM

View PostEnergy Osis, on 05 March 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:


IRONTYGR in a nutshell.



At least I'm not A5S Flavored

Edited by I R O N T Y G R, 07 March 2016 - 07:15 AM.


#14 Rushin Roulette

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 07:33 AM

Wow... ermm... Im not reall sure how to respond to this request. It is obvious that the OP is a new player and doesnt know any better So I will definitely try my utmost to be polite and informative instead of my usual troll mode engage when i see this type of post.

The weapons in BT are split into roughly 3 brackets (not counting support such as TAG and NARC). Each bracket has its spread of ranges and each bracket has advantages and disadvantages over each other;

1. missiles (SRM, SSRM, LRM)
relatively light, ammunition dependent (but high ammo count per ton), no extended or extreme range (Missiles explode immediately upon reaching max range) as well as relatively low heat. high spread without Artemis and no chance of pinpoint damage on any guided missiles, LRMs have a minimum range where they deal 0 damage (IS) and reduced damage (Clans)

2. Energy (Lasers, Pulse lasers and PPCs)
relatively light, very high heat compared to other weapons (regular PPCs have a minimum range where they deal 0 damage on hit), no amunuition required, pinpoint damage.

3. Ballistics (AC, UAC, LBX, Gauss)
Very heavy, medium heat, pinpoint damage, very low ammunition count per ton (compared to missiles), Gauss can explode (but not the ammo), no damage spread (exception is the BLX, which is more of a shotgun than a cannon) MGs are a class of their own, as they produce no heat, but also make very little damage to armoured mechs.

Seeing each class compared to the other 2 is like a rock paper scissor game. Lasers deal damage at a cost of heat, missiles deal damage at the cost of accuracy, Ballistics deal damage at the cost of weight and low ammunition counts.

#15 I R O N

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 03:03 PM

did you just all me new? Click my profile bro..


Large Pulse Lasers do more damage then PPCs weigh the same and are less heat. All i was requesting was Either the ability to Shoot more then 2 or 3 at once with out shutting down. Which ocured in every single mechwarrior game ever in life but this one. OR. Make Srm Ghost heat from 4 to 3. Running out in the open charging a mech and taking 4-5 alphas on the way shouldn't happen often. But because every one takes them; it is allowed. In fact in the last town hall Russ said He was going to reduce the amount of ranged weapons that can be fired at once. Further making this weapon the strongest weapon per ton in the game. If you people can not see that then you are all either stupid or to weak to admit you are relying on OVERBALANCE to win a game. The clear counter measure to SRM hugging is ranged attack that is a fact and due to this clear over balance ranged attack does not work effectively enough to stop some 'mouth drooler' from rushing in the open.

Further more Srm hugging is not even supposed to be a predominate method of primary attack. It is a support strategy. Implemented after the Ranged attacks have weakened the enemy. Yet 4 out 5 matches I play in Que is Exactly as i described. Everyone Boating on Srms and rushing at the enemy haphazrdly. Despite being scouted out WELL in advance and enemy forces responding with plenty of time there is literally nothing they can do short of doing the exact same thing and "rolling the dice" seeing were they may land.

PPCs and SRMs are supposed to behave as they always have in Mechwarriors 2, 3 and 4. Were PPCs are WAY Colder then they are in MWO and SRMs are Used as a support weapon not for assault.

Edited by I R O N T Y G R, 07 March 2016 - 03:21 PM.


#16 ImperialKnight

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:32 PM

OP is obviously not open to any other perspective than his own. Let it go

#17 patoman

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 03:02 PM

I think comparing SRM to PPC off, for one the SRM is SHORT ranged missile. So if it has more DPS per tone than the longest range of longest range energy weapons, it should.

In general I have found PPC's lackluster if you compare them to large lasers, but that's is something else entirely with balancing the weapon.

If you think about it, if you a missile boat, you have to combine LRMs with SRMs or another weapon to be competitive, otherwise the second someone gets inside 200 you dead.

You could get all SRM's and you would be the DPS machine, but then you have to close range.

Stuff should be rebalanced though.

The copy paste of the standard descriptions of weapons from a official game guide is helpful for explaining what things should be but to be more helpful for new players and to emphasize how the game works or should be fixed I added some annotations

1.missiles (SRM, SSRM, LRM)
relatively light, ammunition dependent (but high ammo count per ton), no extended or extreme range (Missiles explode immediately upon reaching max range) as well as relatively low heat. high spread without Artemis and no chance of pinpoint damage on any guided missiles, LRMs have a minimum range where they deal 0 damage (IS) and reduced damage (Clans).
Note: clans can also fit the things for very low tonnage, 5 tones for a LRM 20, so they are a really good weapon to throw on to a mech even if you don’t plan on it being primary. They are different than lasers but equally good to fit. Can’t go wrong with bombarding someone with hundreds of LRMs before they close in for the fight or in a long range stand off, or getting in someones face with as many SRMs as you can fit.


2. Energy (Lasers, Pulse lasers and PPCs)
relatively light, very high heat compared to other weapons (regular PPCs have a minimum range where they deal 0 damage on hit), no amunuition required, pinpoint damage.

Note: If you use energy weapons use lasers, and a good all around weapon to use. the best combo for damage range for the least tonage, and heat would be the clan er (but some say pulses are good too) or if you have to because your not clan regular lasers for IS. The shot is instant with no falloff (unlike projectiles) so it is all around better. The exception would be PPC’s that have slower projectiles and generate much more heat for a modest amount of extra range. Mabey you have one of those mechs that has a bonus to PPC’s so you have to use them but in general lasers are better, unless you have missiles which are good choice too.

3. Ballistics (AC, UAC, LBX, Gauss)
Very heavy, medium heat, pinpoint damage, very low ammunition count per ton (compared to missiles), Gauss can explode (but not the ammo), no damage spread (exception is the BLX, which is more of a shotgun than a cannon) MGs are a class of their own, as they produce no heat, but also make very little damage to armoured mechs.

Note: These things in addition to using up ammo that can explode preventing you using the gun, or killing yourself if you don't have case, and the ammo does not have many shots, expecialy for inner sphere. The guns take up more tonage and slots compared with lasers that do the same damage at longer ranges. The higher tier AC have range that shrinks. Railguns at one point might have been remotely decent, but now with charging mechanic are very cumbersome to use to point of them being useless, I would rank lower than ppcs. ppcs might be considered equaly bad with other ac's with the super high heat they generate, regardless this weapon group is not as good as large lasers. In general lasers are better unless you have a mech that has too many projectile slots and bonuses to them, and not enough slots for lasers, but unless you have to use them, don’t.


Notes for all weapon choices: For fitting the best mech I recommend a combination of missiles and lasers, as many as you can fit, using different variations of either for however close you want to fight. In simple terms.

laser = missiles > PPC > projectiles

Edited by patoman, 10 March 2016 - 03:09 PM.


#18 MovinTarget

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 05:53 AM

Add to the fact that srms are unguided so unless you are ******* a dire wolf some are going to miss...

Lazors give you ability to correct you aim for at minimum partial, focused damage... with srms, once you click, that's it...

#19 xe N on

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 01:51 PM

View PostI R O N T Y G R, on 13 February 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I feel is SRM + Artemis is the most over used unbalanced weapon in the game.


Is this a troll post? Must be.





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