32 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Lugh, on 15 February 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

If you are building for Brawl, you never use an XL, unless you are in a dragon, centurion XL friendly mech

This is why you fail at brawling.

Lol, this guy...

[Lugh]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 February 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

Lol, this guy...

Whoops I forgot Light mechs. But you know, I never think of light mechs as 'brawlers' because they are so fast they never need to stand and take it on the return shot.

My Bad.

[Dan Nashe]

I think, it seems to me, and other qualifiers, that the issue is the er LL more than anything. Both clan and inner sphere.

Almost every mech can easily carry 1 Weapon effective out to 500 or so meters. So you will never be safe. The problem will always be whichever side has the one usable weapon with the longest range, because it allows firing from beyond d the range of effective counterfire. Doubling small laser range might be broken, but if you also doubled heat and burn time, it wouldn't necessarily break the game. The problem is er lls on either clan or IS. This is why clan er MLS while evil, don't break the game. They're not the longest ranged hitscan weapon actually brought to fights.

Also if IS mechs have 30% more er LL range than other is mechs, that breaks the meta, just like clan mechs having 30% more er LL range.

I think PGI is right to target nerf to the er ll, and this was the easiest way. The alternative was probably to make neither the large laser nor the energy range buff affect er lls, and introduce a new 10% er ll quirk. Then adjust the er ll accordingly to balance IS mechs against each other.

This game is not just about clan v IS. IS chassis have to try to balance against each other too.

Also let's face it er ll out ranging clan er ll was really weird from a flavor perspective. It really broke the flavor/atmosphere. But er lls are special for reasons I said above so,

TL;DR my fix would have been:
1. No quirk affects er ll range EXCEPT a quirk that specifically says "plus 10% er large laser range", not energy, not large laser.
2. Make er ll (is) 91% of clan err ll range (91 x 1.10 = 100.1).
3. Add plus 10% er ll range to is mechs as appropriate. Do not add to clan mechs.
4. Keep (?) clan er ll longer burn/more damage.
Tweak 4 as appropriate.

[Y E O N N E]

Lugh, on 15 February 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Whoops I forgot Light mechs. But you know, I never think of light mechs as 'brawlers' because they are so fast they never need to stand and take it on the return shot.

My Bad.

Not even talking about Lights.

Storm Crows, Griffins, Centurions, Wolverines, and even sometimes Blackjacks all dance with the target and spread damage extremely well. They all bring XL engines and enough firepower to steamroll any target in a coordinated team drop. You run in at ~90-95 kph, everybody plants one or two FLD alphas into the called target, and that target is dead. Period. Keep rotating the torso, move to the next call, and repeat.

The fastest way to stop this train is to break its wheels, which means take out the legs. Any two coordinated teams will be jockeying to break each other's wheels. The extra agility afforded by an XL makes improves survivability by letting you move your legs and turn that torso faster. A STD is going to get you killed here because you will either lack the firepower to trade or you will lack the agility to spread.

[TyphonCh]

%10 on ALL laser ranges imo seems a bit.... Lazy. Some mechs should still retain an additional %10 to other laser classes.
At the end of the day... I'm sure we can all agree the 900m IS ERLL had to go. There will always be another quirk pass

[MarineErrant]

It's the pilots job to get closer to use the laser in the optimum range. Adding quirks to allow players to just sit further and further back ruins any meaning and point of range bands. I do think some lasers, particularly pulse lasers on both sides of the fence, have rather pathetic range.

As an aside, IS ER lasers should never be able to exceed the range of their clan counterpart.

Edited by MarineErrant, 15 February 2016 - 10:28 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

MarineErrant, on 15 February 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

It's the pilots job to get closer to use the laser in the optimum range. Adding quirks to allow players to just sit further and further back ruins any meaning and point of range bands.

As an aside, IS ER lasers should never be able to exceed the range of their clan counterpart.

So...having one 1 ton Medium-class laser have more range than another 1 ton Medium-class laser ruins the point of range bands...

Where does that leave IS 'Mechs having to deal with only getting Standard lasers against Clan 'Mechs with ER Medium lasers? The vanilla IS standards are neither cold enough nor fast-firing enough to give them a proper niche against the Clan options.

[MauttyKoray]

Source Mystic, on 14 February 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

I read that all Is mechs are going to get a nerf to range down to 10 % .....I am fine with that but what are you going to do to re-balance that ..... are you going to buff cool-down and general heat. because that is the re-balance. clan has range at the cost of hotter weapons with longer cool down so if you take range down to 10% you should shift the remaining percents to other lazer quarks to be fair just my opinion. also you are going to buff targeting computers on clan more If this going to happen buff command console and bap while you are at it because bap and command console should buff each other better as well as are going to need a buff if you are making the clan targeting computer better. if you do not want to buff them take down therr weight and make them usable in smaller mechs.


In general the I think pgi dose a reasonable symmetric balance between Is and clan but I disagree with sweeping nerfs like the jump jet nerf the speed tweek nerf and now the 10 percent range Nerf. They just cause other problems that need to be addressed


The jj and speed tweak nerf hit lights way to hard and they did not make reasonable exchanges for lights when they did this. If you make a wide change to all mechs you should make a increse in other values of the same value. If want to nerf lazer range on Is fine but buff other cool downs and general heat quarks to to make them better at the range they do fight at. That is all i have to say. As well as i will not be buying any mechs until i see how bad or good your changes are .

Holy crap... This AGAIN...

The GENERAL quirk "Energy Range" is being capped at 10%. It does NOT mean that ALL energy quirks are capped at 10%.

What this means is even if Energy Range is 10% a mech can still have ADDITIONAL range quirks to further boost specific weapons such as Small or Medium lasers, etc.

This change is being made so that things like +20% energy range doesn't happen, things with already long ranges see a much higher benefit from percentage increases than anything with a shorter range. The lasers like Large and ER Large get MASSIVE boosts to these quirks in comparison to the Small or Mediums. Its part of the reason we've had the ridiculous range issue with the IS LL and ERLL being META spammed like crazy.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 15 February 2016 - 03:23 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mautty...most of those weapon-specific quirks are gone. That was one of the major points about the 1 December patch: quirks became majority general. I can't even name one 'Mech off the top of my head that has a specific energy range quirk. The LCT-1E, -1M, and -3S all used to have MedLas-specific quirks. The BJ-1X had MedLas-specific quirks. The LCT-1V had ERLL-specific quirks.

All gone now.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 15 February 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Source Mystic, on 14 February 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

I read that all Is mechs are going to get a nerf to range down to 10 % .....I am fine with that but what are you going to do to re-balance that ..... are you going to buff cool-down and general heat. because that is the re-balance. clan has range at the cost of hotter weapons with longer cool down so if you take range down to 10% you should shift the remaining percents to other lazer quarks to be fair just my opinion. also you are going to buff targeting computers on clan more If this going to happen buff command console and bap while you are at it because bap and command console should buff each other better as well as are going to need a buff if you are making the clan targeting computer better. if you do not want to buff them take down therr weight and make them usable in smaller mechs.


In general the I think pgi dose a reasonable symmetric balance between Is and clan but I disagree with sweeping nerfs like the jump jet nerf the speed tweek nerf and now the 10 percent range Nerf. They just cause other problems that need to be addressed


The jj and speed tweak nerf hit lights way to hard and they did not make reasonable exchanges for lights when they did this. If you make a wide change to all mechs you should make a increse in other values of the same value. If want to nerf lazer range on Is fine but buff other cool downs and general heat quarks to to make them better at the range they do fight at. That is all i have to say. As well as i will not be buying any mechs until i see how bad or good your changes are .

They aren't bettering cooldown or heatgen because they felt the range quirks were OP. To transplant the % would merely keep them OP, but in a different way.

The goal is to tone them down.

Is it too much? Too little? Just right? We'll have wait and play it out and see, because as always, the forum-warrioring theorycrafters cannot agree on whether its a pendulum swinging too far or not enough per the norm.

Doesn't help that PGI continues to make sweeping changes that impact tones of different variables and Mechs instead of making micro-adjustments gradually over time.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Lukoi Banacek, on 15 February 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

They aren't bettering cooldown or heatgen because they felt the range quirks were OP. To transplant the % would merely keep them OP, but in a different way.

The goal is to tone them down.

Is it too much? Too little? Just right? We'll have wait and play it out and see, because as always, the forum-warrioring theorycrafters cannot agree on whether its a pendulum swinging too far or not enough per the norm.

Doesn't help that PGI continues to make sweeping changes that impact tones of different variables and Mechs instead of making micro-adjustments gradually over time.

A lot of the mechs getting hit by this nerf are not OP in any way. Go to http://snafets.de/mwo/quirks.htm and type in Energy Weapon Range in the quirks field. Here are just some of the mechs affected by this.

-Commandos
-Urbies
-Spiders
-Trebuchets
-Kintaros
-Wolverines
-Catapults
-Awesomes
-Zeuses
-Battlemasters
-Highlanders


Any of those look OP to you?