17 replies to this topic

[HumpingBunny]

Hipster: a 'Mech you almost NEVER see on the battlefield (we all know which ones they are)

When we look at the quick play queue, the percentage of heavy 'Mechs always has the highest number. So, let's examine a few more numbers. With the upcoming release of the Rifleman and Archer, the number of available heavies in the game will surpass all other weight classes. Furthermore, the heavy weight class probably has the fewest Hipsters (even more probable, the heavy weight class has zero Hipsters). The result, the queue is always loaded with heavies. I can't blame anyone for running heavies, heck, I like running them myself. However, it seems as though the matchmaker is overwhelmed with them.

Now let's look a bit further, and I'm attempting to start an intelligent discussion here to establish the root cause. My theory is this: the battlefield is so flooded with heavies because we don't have enough DESIRED 'Mechs in all other weight classes. The match maker must be suffering in its search to put together a match because of all the heavies - then we all get frustrated because we're waiting forever to get a match, and get stuck with a very mismatched result from the match maker (severely out-toned).

I see two problems: Not enough desired 'Mechs and the matchmaker struggles to construct a match with so many heavies.

So is my theory completely off, or could we solve two problems by simply adding DESIRED 'Mechs to the game in the light, medium and assault classes? I would genuinely appreciate constructive feedback here. Thanks in advance folks, and as always, let's pray PGI sees this.

[Hit the Deck]

Bigger Mechs (or bigger stronger things in general) are just cooler. But fatties are hard to pilot in MWO so people gravitate towards Heavies.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Good firepower, good durability, good maneuverability/speed. That is why the Heavy queue is popular. That is also why all new reseens are heavies as well. PGI knows that Heavies are the popular choice for the straight combat nature of the game so they will sell well (plus they can charge well for heavies too).

Lights don't have the firepower or durability, Mediums have mediocre everything, and Assaults are powerful and durable, but generally so lacking mobility that they can be sitting ducks (see most NASCAR complaint threads). Assaults can have mobility, but they are rarely THAT mobile or maneuverable, and lack the firepower to get there. Even then, many heavies receive durability quirks that can offset the advantages of a quick assault.

That is at least part of why things are as they are.

[Alistair Winter]

Ultimately, PGI had to balance the game by attributing arbitrary values to the different weight classes. There's a lot of hard numbers from TT rules, such as tonnage, engine sizes, etc. and there are some numbers loosely inspired by TT, such as hardpoints.

But stuff like turning rate, torso twist, arm movement, that's all arbitrary numbers set by PGI. They balanced the game in a way that made heavy mechs the ideal balance for most players. If they buffed all kinds of agility (such as turning rate and torso twist speed) by 500% across the board, I guess more people would play assaults. If they nerfed it by 50% across the board, maybe more people would find heavy mechs too clumsy and turn to medium mechs.

The Firestarter, Jenner IIC and ACH are the desired mechs, as far as I can tell. Raven too, but it suffers due to hardpoint starvation. However, most people can't consistently do well with them, due to the way the game is balanced. The heavy mechs are not sufficiently clumsy in comparison to light mechs for mobility to make up for lack of armour and firepower. Quite frankly, some heavy mechs are really, really agile. So light mech pilots often have to be really, really good to avoid getting legged in 2-3 alphastrikes.

I think the last nerf to pilot skills was a step in the right direction. If they nerfed agility even further, you would see the majority of players playing medium mechs. Medium mechs would make up 40-50% of the queue, like heavies do today. Heavies and lights would be somewhat less popular. Assault mechs would be fairly rare. And as I understand it, this would match lore pretty well too.

I doubt the majority of players would enjoy it. I would though.

[ExplicitContent]

I concur with HtD. Assaults are too sluggish and the firepower advantage over a heavy is marginal. Yes, more armor, but that comes at the cost of mobility and with the relatively low TTK and the high end alphas, it makes them a much more difficult class to pilot. Heavies allow you to make mistakes (peek around the wrong corner, get out of position) and you can survive. Assaults get torched due to mobility and mediums due to low armor.

That being said, I like to pilot certain assaults and a lot of mediums (mobility FTW). For me, I need to stick in a class for a bit to ensure that I am in the 'mind-set' appropriate for piloting that style. I intentionally will take mediums when the MM is sluggish for me. I stay away from lights like the plague.

I think heavies feel more viable, even in less than perfect chassis, because they have a good balance and allow pilots to pack firepower and make a mistake or two without ruining the match.

TL;DR- Heavies are just better.

[Herr Vorragend]

It's not only about desired vs hipsters. You have the best possibilities for building different loadouts, because you have more free tons to experiment with. You want two big ballistics? Go heavy! You want several big or many small missile launchers AND a fast engine? Still room for ammunition? Go heavy!

It's simply math

I'm using all weightclasses and every single one has its purposes. But when it comes down to experimenting or ride an allround-mech I usually land back in the heavy class.
What we need is role warfare. And maybe repair&rearm. Mediums or lights are cheaper to run. Energy weapons have no costs for ammunition. We need economic warfare and role warfare imho

Edited by Herr Vorragend, 15 February 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Imperius]

Hit the Deck, on 15 February 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

Bigger Mechs (or bigger stronger things in general) are just cooler. But fatties are hard to pilot in MWO so people gravitate towards Heavies.

But I like my fatty

[MeiSooHaityu]

Alistair Winter, on 15 February 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

Ultimately, PGI had to balance the game by attributing arbitrary values to the different weight classes. There's a lot of hard numbers from TT rules, such as tonnage, engine sizes, etc. and there are some numbers loosely inspired by TT, such as hardpoints.

But stuff like turning rate, torso twist, arm movement, that's all arbitrary numbers set by PGI. They balanced the game in a way that made heavy mechs the ideal balance for most players. If they buffed all kinds of agility (such as turning rate and torso twist speed) by 500% across the board, I guess more people would play assaults. If they nerfed it by 50% across the board, maybe more people would find heavy mechs too clumsy and turn to medium mechs...

...I doubt the majority of players would enjoy it. I would though.

Unfortunately, they kind of set a precedence with previous treatment of mechs that would be hard (if not dangerous) to radically alter this late in the game.

Any major changes to one weight class vs another is probably out of the question at this point. If a person has invested hundreds of dollars into Heavies, and Heavies only saw a huge nerf to performance (to try and shift the population), it would be a disaster (especially when 4 stand-alone Re-seen Heavy packs have been/being released). If I had poured a bunch of money into a class that saw huge nerfs vs other classes that didn't, I would be absolutely livid.

I almost wish there was a good way to have a drop deck applicable in solo/queue play. That would help diffuse the mech loadouts a bit. However, I wouldn't call it "quickplay" any more as dropping with 4 mechs for a match is anything but quick.

I'm not really sure if there is a good answer at this point short of well defined and rewarded role warfare. Honestly, I'm not even sure what that would add. It might help lights, but what real role does a medium play vs a heavy?

Anyway, this will always be a tough issue to resolve.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 15 February 2016 - 07:35 AM.

[El Bandito]

If only Assaults did not get stuck on every single pebble and branch, on top of having piss-poor ability to climb gentle slopes... I love my Assaults, but the mobility changes had nerfed their fun value.

My Battlemasters travel at 80 kph with huge XL engine, on par with Heavies and even some Mediums, but the pebbles of steel stop it cold.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 February 2016 - 07:42 AM.

[Malleus011]

Light and Medium 'mechs are limited to their skirmishing and support roles, there is no or limited recon or raiding in the game. There is no R&R so no reason to favor a cheaper 'mech. There are no limits to availability beyond C-Bills, so no reason to populate the battlefield with 'common' chassis.

Since we have a limited arena shooter, players drive the 'mechs which operate best in the combat-only environment.

[Novakaine]

Imperius, on 15 February 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

But I like my fatty

I want's me shinies!!!!!!!
On a side note the matches are 98.2% hipper when I'm in the match.
No ego involved here

Edited by Novakaine, 15 February 2016 - 09:08 AM.

[Roadkill]

I don't think it has anything to do with "Hipster" vs "Desired" Mechs. It's just that the heavy category is where MWO's Mechs hit their sweet spot. Good armor, firepower, and maneuverability all in one package.

In lore, the medium category is the most prevalent, but in MWO they're a little too fragile. Also in lore the mediums are the most cost effective, which is the main reasons for decisions in lore. We don't have to deal with military budgets in MWO.

[1Grimbane]

can the word hipster even be applied to anything ever related to mechwarrior lol... maybe if you put some thick black rims on an urbanmech maybe

[Pathos]

1Grimbane, on 15 February 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

can the word hipster even be applied to anything ever related to mechwarrior lol... maybe if you put some thick black rims on an urbanmech maybe

Nah. You'd have to be running a bone stock Urbie for it to be hipster. Because yknow, the Urbie was cool before it was cool.

[FupDup]

It's a byproduct of the BT construction system. Mechs gain armor and firepower on a nearly linear scale, but lose mobility on a scale that is exponential with a small start but larger end point. What this means is that in the lower classes, mobility changes are relatively small, but once you get to assaults then the mobility loss kicks in to overdrive.

Heavies are in the exact "sweet spot" to not hit the exponential curve for the most part, while having more guns and armor than mediums.


So, let's take a look at the overall pros/cons of the "average" mech in each class:

Light: High mobility, low armor, low firepower
Medium: Moderate-high mobility, low-moderate armor, moderate firepower
Heavy: Moderate mobility, moderate-high armor, high firepower
Assault: Low mobility, high armor, high firepower

Heavies don't have a drastic weakness on average. They're pretty much the real generalists of BT much more than mediums, their only "downside" versus mediums is just costing more imaginary money to build.

[Druarc]

They're just the best all round mechs. If you had a points system that gave extra cash for running a less "popular" or so called "poorer" class of mech you might start seeing more diversity.

[Lostdragon]

Heavies have been in the Goldie Locks zone for a while and will likely remain so unless there are significant game play changes made. There are relatively few nediums, lights, and assaults that fall into this zone. Mechs like the Panther, Adder, and Kit Fox suffer from being too slow and lacking hardpoints. The good lights are all fast and have the hardpoints necessary to boat a lot of small or medium lasers along with good hitboxes.

Many mediums are not as fast or only marginally faster than some heavies, don't have the tonnage or hardpoints for high alpha, and don't have the toughness to survive much face time. Rare exceptions like the BJ, SCR, etc reap the benefits of good hitboxes, Uber quirks, and/or having Clan endo and FF armor.

Assaults tend to be really slow (relatively) and require a good bit of patience and map knowledge as well as team coordination to be really effective. They also melt instantly just like everything else when getting focus fired.

Heavies can have nearly the firepower of assaults with the same speed and almost same agility as most mediums. They have enough armor to make a mistake less likely to be fatal (still melt under ff though). Even heavies have their go to favorites that are simply better than their counterparts. The TBR has the perfect storm of FF armor, endo, hardpoints, big engine, and enough tonnage to create many good builds with high alphas. The Thunderbolt has great quirks. The Summoner and Dragon are rare compared to these two because they just aren't as good. In reality there are a few chassis that are very, very good and overshadow others in their weight class, so those get played a lot.

Unlocking locked equipment for Clans would help many of their underperformers. Unlocking Endo and FF would make most Clan mechs viable. IS mechs are trickier, but many of the worst offenders will benefit from the upcoming rescale. I don't like the approach of balancing through quirks, but it did help a lot of mechs to become more usable, however I think most mechs don't need quirks, they need baseline adjustments to weapons to make the loadouts they use more competitive. That would negate the need for smaller quirks and then you would only really need weapon quirks that were relatively small for mechs like the HBK.

[Davegt27]

HumpingBunny, on 15 February 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

Hipster: a 'Mech you almost NEVER see on the battlefield (we all know which ones they are)

When we look at the quick play queue, the percentage of heavy 'Mechs always has the highest number. So, let's examine a few more numbers. With the upcoming release of the Rifleman and Archer, the number of available heavies in the game will surpass all other weight classes. Furthermore, the heavy weight class probably has the fewest Hipsters (even more probable, the heavy weight class has zero Hipsters). The result, the queue is always loaded with heavies. I can't blame anyone for running heavies, heck, I like running them myself. However, it seems as though the matchmaker is overwhelmed with them.

Now let's look a bit further, and I'm attempting to start an intelligent discussion here to establish the root cause. My theory is this: the battlefield is so flooded with heavies because we don't have enough DESIRED 'Mechs in all other weight classes. The match maker must be suffering in its search to put together a match because of all the heavies - then we all get frustrated because we're waiting forever to get a match, and get stuck with a very mismatched result from the match maker (severely out-toned).

I see two problems: Not enough desired 'Mechs and the matchmaker struggles to construct a match with so many heavies.

So is my theory completely off, or could we solve two problems by simply adding DESIRED 'Mechs to the game in the light, medium and assault classes? I would genuinely appreciate constructive feedback here. Thanks in advance folks, and as always, let's pray PGI sees this.

The ELO match maker worked and the PSR match maker works the problem is people
80% to 90% of the people playing the game are not that good
The constantly make errors either in the Mech lab or on the battle field

To make up for these short comings people pack more armor and or more fire power
When I first started the BJ was my favorite Mech but I need something that lasted longer (armor) so I picked the Jager (big mistake at the time, June 2014)

To do fair at this game you need MML
Mobility, maintainability, lethality

These are the goals you’re shooting for
I won’t even take a medium into CW (on the IS side) they on average don’t have enough armor
You do have the option to increase the mobility of IS Mechs but you lose lethality (firepower)

In a way it is about Mech availability
The ability to bring the most Mobility, maintainability and the most lethality at any given time

Edited by Davegt27, 15 February 2016 - 12:04 PM.