31 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

The purpose of the agility quirks is very closely related to the skill tree nerf.

Nerfing the skillz tree gave PGI a way to nerf Clan mechs without using "red text" negative quirks, and then they're adding all of these agility quirks to the IS to make them handle similar to how they used to handle before the nerf.

Edited by FupDup, 16 February 2016 - 09:25 AM.

[Aresye]

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 February 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

An IS mech has heavy weapons and equip along with a heavy STD engine or a super fragile XL. So, in an IS heavy, you want to mount competitive weaponry with the survivability of a Clan Heavy, you need a smaller STD engine that not only makes you slow, but also makes the mech handle like a pig.

Nearly every single top IS mech runs XL, even ones without additional armor or structure for more protection. The, "super fragile XL," excuse is getting rather pathetic at this point. Any pilot that has even the slightest smidgen of competence in this game knows how to torso twist to spread damage.

I'm willing to bet if PGI came out and said, "We're updating the agility quirks for IS to only affect standard engines," you'd be right there in that thread complaining about, "IS mech this, Clan XL that..."

[MeiSooHaityu]

Aresye, on 16 February 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Nearly every single top IS mech runs XL, even ones without additional armor or structure for more protection. The, "super fragile XL," excuse is getting rather pathetic at this point. Any pilot that has even the slightest smidgen of competence in this game knows how to torso twist to spread damage.

I'm willing to bet if PGI came out and said, "We're updating the agility quirks for IS to only affect standard engines," you'd be right there in that thread complaining about, "IS mech this, Clan XL that..."

I'm not one to whine and complain about this stuff.

The fact is the IS XL is more fragile than the IS STD engine or Clan XL. That is not disputable. Torso twisting and spreading damage has nothing to do with the fragility of an engine...at all. It will keep you alive and effective longer,(true for all engine types), but it isn't changing how the engine works (and especially how it dies).

Now as it stands, I think the current balance on engines is acceptable since after the Clan XL nerfs. So no, I'm not going to be "complaining" about this or that. I was pointing out why I thought PGI gave IS mechs the agility that they did and then I defended quirks a bit. Just because I called a small IS STD engine a pig (which they are) and an IS XL engine fragile (which it is), I'm a complainer? Nope, again, just stating how it is.

Like I said earlier, I think PGI gave agility quirks to many IS mechs to help make smaller engines a bit nore nimble to help compete with bigger engine clan mechs because their tech is lighter and smaller and IS mechs tech is larger and heavier. It's just a theory though.

[Deathlike]

Again... I feel like people ignored the core reason to the efficencies tree nerf (although, it could be argued Paul is too lazy, which could be just as well).

It all comes back to effing Trial Mechs.

If people had ANY clue on how effiencies made the Dire Wolf "not suck" (especially when double elited) prior to the changes/nerfs, then now they understand better because of it.

The difference is significant, and anyone telling you otherwise is either clueless or trolling.

What SHOULD have happened is that the efficencies nerf should have transferred some (in some cases all) of the changes to ALL CHASSIS ACROSS THE BOARD in the form of quirks. This way, you can still give your subtle nerfs, while not breaking everything as a consequence.

So, inevitably all prequirked mechs were affected LESS by the change, and the ones that didn't have quirks (or started with negative ones) were affected MORE.


It's not rocket science people.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 February 2016 - 12:46 PM.

[Chuck Jager]

As having both a long term mostly clan account and a new OP IS account, I will say that the Clan mechs still put out the most damage per trade at the distances where games are won and loss.

My SHD is a great XL mech but its firepower is not enough (not OP), it taught me how to drive XL and yes I can run a MAD 3R with an XL and do pretty good, but it is not a Twolf.
The BJs except for the 1x are still slow and now have shorter range and less structure.
Crabs I have not played, but they are pretty hard to kill, but not like a Storm Crow.
In CW you will find many XL mechs because they are snipers and can be picked for that drop, but folks will also have a durable std push mech.
Dual Gauss Ebj is just better than Dual Gauss Jager (most jagers go boom real easy).
At least clan mechs can have gauss in the torso and still push the line without fear of a shot bypassing the armor and critting the gauss/torso and ending the match.
XLs in IS lights are not part of the equation, and even an up-engined XL IS assault is still an easy target compared to a 70-75 ton IS or Clan heavy.

So yes there are some really decent XL friendly IS mechs, but even if engine size is comparable and they still get an accel buff there is the difference in number of hardpoints and clan tonnage. The package is not always equal for IS over Clan. Clan also have the ability to be a bit sloppy in some of their builds especially while mastering a good chassis. IS may need to master 3 chassis while only having 1 decent build.

I do believe both lights and assaults need their accel/twist rates adjusted to make up for the tree nerf. I do not miss the speed of the Dwolf it is the twist. Both lights and assaults are at the mercy of the team, and it gets frustrating waiting for that 1 game out of 10 where you can really play your role (high damage is not the same as working with the team to turn a close match). It is not as hard to create a win in a good heavy or some mediums (mostly solo pug and some reg group).

With the quirks and comp play, you may find a limited number of mechs in the top groups. This is only the top 2% of mech build combos. This may favor IS or Clan especially with groups and CW. I would say Clan probably has a 3 to 1 ratio of mech build combos in the top 35% of mech/build combos spread across all modes and levels of play (no proof so go at it).

[Ace Selin]

This is why IS mechs needs accel/decel buffs...

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 February 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

It's probably partially due to the inclusion of the Clan mechs in MWO. When it comes to clanners, Now we have 75 ton mechs (Timber Wolf) going almost 90kph, Assaults like the Gargoyle also doing shy of 90kph, Executioner also about that fast with MASC, and the best Clan medium (Stormcrow) doing 105kph. Those large engine don't just make Clan mechs fast, they make them very agile as well.

Machines like the Timber Wolf are so well equipped due to the pod space and lighter (and often smaller) Clan tech. Combine that with the high speed of a big yet light XL engine that is almost as durable as an IS STD and yet a lot lighter, and you have a big reason why IS mechs are getting agility buffs.

An IS mech has heavy weapons and equip along with a heavy STD engine or a super fragile XL. So, in an IS heavy, you want to mount competitive weaponry with the survivability of a Clan Heavy, you need a smaller STD engine that not only makes you slow, but also makes the mech handle like a pig.

So to compensate, PGI gives some mechs agility bonuses to help make them more competitive to their clan bretherin (even if a smaller engine still equates to a slower top speed).

That's my take on it anyway.

Oh and this is so true ....

Darth Hotz, on 16 February 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

The clan whining just does not stop...

[Chuck Jager]

Darth Hotz, on 16 February 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

The clan whining just does not stop...

I play Clan and I agree with the buffs for IS and the few Clan, but I never played BT or read the pulp.

What I really see is 4-6 OP Clan mechs and 2-3 OP IS mechs (give or take a few), and a really easy to exploit CW system by any decent sized group(s).

This is like the poor/middle class conservatives/liberals blaming each other while the wealthy donate to both parties.

There is no IS or Clan, just OP mechs and tactics. Unless we are at the top or bottom 5-10% of players, it is our choice if we want to use them.

[Hades Trooper]

sounds like we got a hot topic, here, please folks more input, but make sure not to flame, this is a serious issue we need to address i feel

[Dirk Le Daring]

Mister D, on 16 February 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

The ACCEL/DECEL from the skilltree nerf is the one thing I wish they would revert.

Bump into an obstacle or rough terrain & spend 5 seconds recovering speed, have to stop suddenly & you spend 5 seconds standing around like "Duh? please punch me in the face good sir" before you're actually moving again.

Its very frustrating trying to get out of harms way if you ever get stopped or slowed down, and it just gets worse the heavier you go.

Gotta agree with this, it can be very frustrating.

[Hades Trooper]

i can say honestly some mechs could use some degree of acc/dec quirks but surely 70% is just not what russ was meaning when he said he wanted to bring back the feeling of weight in mechs instead of it becoming a run and gun game

[MauttyKoray]

Hades Trooper, on 16 February 2016 - 01:08 AM, said:

What with IS mechs getting stupidly powerful acc/dec quirks?


I thought PGI wanted to bring back the feel of heavy stompy robots and yet i see a Rifleman with 70% acc/dec quirks to name but just one.

All the while the clan mechs feel like bricks without this. I personaly found this after driving the Warhammers and then going back to clan heavies and assults and notice how much slower the clan mechs are.

So not only are the IS weapons got shorter burn times for laser they can duck in and out of cover much faster than there clan counter parts.

Just another example in my eyes of OP IS mechs.

Yeah, the agility quirks need to be toned down on IS mechs. I understand PGI wanted to make them a little more agile, but they're overall more agile on an entire faction level, where as they should be quirked based on mech specific reasons. As stated, some of the smaller mechs should have it and a handful of the heavier ones that were made to be more agile in lore.

[Hades Trooper]

MauttyKoray, on 18 February 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

Yeah, the agility quirks need to be toned down on IS mechs. I understand PGI wanted to make them a little more agile, but they're overall more agile on an entire faction level, where as they should be quirked based on mech specific reasons. As stated, some of the smaller mechs should have it and a handful of the heavier ones that were made to be more agile in lore.

Can't disagree with you on that. some smaller mechs is fine and a few of the lore agile mechs also, but as a rule there starting to get out of hand and i think this is something that needs to be discussed before it get anymore out of hand.